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Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

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Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#271

Post by user5994461 »

Nasrudith wrote: post #177
iammiles wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aside from the accessibility issues pointed out by another comment, this was mostly an annoyance upon our users that the higher-ups decided converted well. FWIW we did try to argue against it but profits dictate behavior in a large corporation. :-/ Either way, it doesn't exist any more and if you were ever bothered by it (I apologize), there are no over-arching effects that you have to worry about.

I doubt it leads to actual profits but the morons at the top think it will for some reason.

Most of the dark patterns lead to more profits, or sign ups, or something measurable. That's why they are everywhere, they really have a purpose.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#272

Post by hnzix »

fao_ wrote: post #219
iamleppert wrote: post #209

I created software that was used by call center agents to bid on “bathroom” break time slots and kept track of who was on break and actively punished those who didn’t follow the rules. It rewarded those that had higher performance and who took less breaks with higher priority. If an agent didn’t come back from their break a security guard would automatically be dispatched to find them. For the same company I also mad…

I have to ask, why did you choose to take the contract? Financial pressures? Or did you not feel that such a system is morally reprehensible? Personally while I'm opposed to programmer certification, systems like these certainly make me wish such a thing existed.

Ironically, there's currently a post on HN frontpage about malevolent personality traits: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17685733

I would file this under 3. Moral Disengagement - A generalized cognitive orientation to the world that differentiates individuals' thinking in a way that powerfully affects unethical behavior.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#273

Post by sgentle »

Rjevski wrote: post #243
austhrow743 wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about conning or no value in the definition of telemarketing. It's just outbound sales. Some of it is scams, plenty isn't.

I disagree. You wouldn’t need “outbound sales” if you had a product that people wanted. They would be calling you with their wallets open if it was the case. You only need outbound sales/scammers if you have a product that you think that people need even though they’ve been living without just fine for ages. > Some of it is scams, plenty isn't. Please give me some examples of how some are scams but plenty are not. Fr…

I've got no great love for telemarketing or the advertising industry, but as a point of fact it's not true that if you make something people want they will seek you out to find it. If you make something that people want but do not make any effort to put it in front of them or argue for its merits, it will likely end up ignored and forgotten.

"They're just fine without it" is a pretty good counterargument, not just against marketing, but against speaking your mind, applying for a job, asserting yourself in any way, and the pursuit of science, knowledge, or advancement of any kind. If the status quo is good, it is only because someone improved it from what it was before. It can be improved again.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#274

Post by avs733 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #41

I suspect you're not going to get many personal stories here because it would be self-incriminating. But I have a couple from some people I know in tech. 1. I know the guy who, pre-Snowden, actually designed many of the pieces of network gear needed for the dragnet. His perspective was basically: Yes it's wrong, but what do I know? I just design electronic circuits. 2. Same guy also mentioned how at another company h…

> 1. I know the guy who, pre-Snowden, actually designed many of the pieces of network gear needed for the dragnet. His perspective was basically: Yes it's wrong, but what do I know? I just design electronic circuits.

In case anyone wonders, this is why so many engineering schools are increasing their focus on teaching ethics.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#275

Post by ryan-allen »

It's not really unethical but in that vein: I made a program on the TI83 that you could punch numbers into in order to get results on an electronics exam (this was in high school).

I made it for fun, not really to cheat or anything, but once other students found out about it they asked for copies of it. Within a day or two the whole class had a copy of this program.

I didn't understand operator precedence, nor did I bother to test the program. Everyone used it in the exam and the whole class flunked due to BODMAS shenanigans.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#276

Post by Sophistifunk »

insickness wrote: post #100
Raed667 wrote: post #92

(I didn't go through with this, but considered) While I was a student I worked for a small shop that sold online services. I was something between an intern and a junior developer/security guy. The boss (non technical) privately asked me one day to do some research about automating some data entry processes, basically reading from excel files, some databases, formatting and putting it all in another database. I found…

There is nothing unethical about this. In fact I applaud your boss. If you can automate something instead of pay people to do it, you should do it.

Agreed, it's pretty much what we (programmers) do. A cleverer boss will use his people to make more profit, instead of fire a bunch to reduce costs, but cest la vie.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#277

Post by ryan-allen »

pmiller2 wrote: post #99
jonnyrockit wrote: post #76

Hard to believe there's no mention of working on projects for the NSA.

If you worked on something evil for the NSA, would you mention it? I’d like to think most HN posters aren’t that stupid.

Not only that but they quite possibly could face jail time? Security clearances are pretty serious business!

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#279

Post by avs733 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #41

I suspect you're not going to get many personal stories here because it would be self-incriminating. But I have a couple from some people I know in tech. 1. I know the guy who, pre-Snowden, actually designed many of the pieces of network gear needed for the dragnet. His perspective was basically: Yes it's wrong, but what do I know? I just design electronic circuits. 2. Same guy also mentioned how at another company h…

>It's one thing to sell these things to an allied government, it's quite another to have them on the open market.

Honest question...why?

The result/intent seems the same whether done by a state or nonstate actor. In fact a state actor seems more likely to use it because of a greater feeling of moral justification.

Re: Ask HN: What is the most unethical thing you've done as a programmer?

#280

Post by user5994461 »

GhostVII wrote: post #215
hirundo wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fault the guy for the arbitrage, just for not fulfilling the contract. It would be about equally unethical if he were doing the great work himself and got bored and wandered away.

I think it is pretty unethical to give someone access to company data without the companies permission, and especially to allow that person to actually work on company products.

First part of the sentence, sure. Last part is debatable, so many things are outsourced or contracted, any product is largely contributed to by non employees.
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