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Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

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Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#261

Post by stormbrew »

sadfnjksdf wrote: post #197
shin_lao wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the CEO agrees with the CTO, then the company is dead. It means the CTO is on a mission by the CEO, who was unable to speak directly with his cofounder.

> the company is dead. No, it's not. It means the relationship between the cofounders is severely damaged. The company may be fine. Everyone is making the assumption here that what the CTO is doing is wrong. It may have been the right thing to do for the company. It is just the wrong thing for the OP. I think the OP should lawyer up, try to get fairly compensated for his contributions, and end the relationship. Busin…

> Everyone is making the assumption here that what the CTO is doing is wrong. It may have been the right thing to do for the company. It is just the wrong thing for the OP.

Barring the question of whether the OP is just lying about what's going on (so taking as given that the concerns raised are technical proficiency and that the CTO is asking the OP to leave the company and not just to lay off doing production coding work), I'm curious if you can explain under what circumstances this would be the right thing to do?

Undermining someone like this strikes me as probably almost never the right thing for the company. It's toxic and destroys trust in all directions.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#262

Post by stretchwithme »

ceejayoz wrote: post #255
Hermel wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally, when founding a company, there is trust among the founders and they do not try to fuck each other with maliciously written contracts.

Trust is often misplaced, and there are plenty of people who seem nice initially while working to screw you.

When you write a contract designed to screw the other party, you run the risk of being discovered.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#263

Post by dchichkov »

rmz wrote: post #236
dchichkov wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Well, my current way of thinking is that there are no terrible coders, it is just that mature and experienced engineers are slightly less prone to making terrible and difficult to correct mistakes. Like using an obscure language or something, just because they feel that way and without considering the implications ;)

I disagree, somewhat :-) There are people whose contribution is horrible but it's rarely confined to the quality of their code. It's more about being able to lead the company in directions that are ultimately wasteful in some way or other and not being able to change direction when the time is right. That leadership may be expressed in code, but the code is as much or more a symptom than the root cause. With basic QA…

Well, my understanding is that developer's experience changes the shape of the probability distribution of excellent/horrible contributions. But it is always a distribution. And that it is difficult to accurately distinguish between excellent/horrible contributions without hindsight.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#264

Post by MaulingMonkey »

dchichkov wrote: post #184
gaius wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

About 20 years, yes. There's nothing bad about being a terrible coder who manages to put together a basic product. There are plenty of terrible musicians who still release albums for example. But it takes wisdom and maturity to understand ones own limitations. If I owned 50% of a company, and a guy who had measurably increased my wealth by improving the product and hence the value of the company, gave me some advice…

Interesting. Well, my current way of thinking is that there are no terrible coders, it is just that mature and experienced engineers are slightly less prone to making terrible and difficult to correct mistakes. Like using an obscure language or something, just because they feel that way and without considering the implications ;)

There are, apparently, those who cannot implement FizzBuzz. Perhaps it's incorrect to call them "coders". But beyond that, you have a spectrum of skill. Do they become competent before they become coders in your books?

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#265

Post by robertschultz »

Agreeing with everyone here. He has definitely overstepped the line and he is not acting like a true CTO. Part of his job is to ensure he instills a high level of trust and support with the team in addition to the rest of his role. Assuming you're an overall good guy, he should do what he can to ensure you stay as part of the company you helped build, be it bad code or not. And if things are not working out, at least provide the path of what you need to do to make it better as the clause. But either way, it sounds like he's just being an ass with an ego.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#266

Post by ceejayoz »

stretchwithme wrote: post #262
ceejayoz wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust is often misplaced, and there are plenty of people who seem nice initially while working to screw you.

When you write a contract designed to screw the other party, you run the risk of being discovered.

And when you're screwing someone who holds to the "no lawyers because you're supposed to trust your cofounders" approach that risk is generally greatly diminished.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#267

Post by mattm »

cantlookaway wrote: post #259
dchichkov wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty sleek. He is in a rather powerful position then.

How? I would have thought that the improved and existing code base being my work would strengthen my hand.

No offence but you seem a little naive and/or inexperienced. In addition to the strong recommendation to get your own lawyer now, I would suggest you read "The 48 Laws of Power" by Robert Greene to get a crash course in things people do to try to obtain power. You may begin to see the CTO in your situation in a different light.

HINT: This has nothing to do with your coding ability

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#268

Post by patrickdavey »

cantlookaway wrote: post #212
Bluestrike2 wrote: post #110

You need to hire an attorney, one who works in business litigation (if you can find someone specializing in minority shareholder disputes, that much the better). Right now. If you're delaying on this point out of some idea of wanting to "try to fix things first" or "not wanting to be the bad guy," you're just shooting yourself in the foot and downing blood thinners to keep the wound from clotting. Working with an att…

I will get a lawyer, not the company one. Thank you for all of your advice.

Good job. I for one would be _very_ interested in a follow up post on how this turns out. Good luck.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#269

Post by gaoshan »

cantlookaway wrote: post #173
gaoshan wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You have phrased this as an almost apologetic post And I bet this is why the CTO has taken the path that they have. They sense the same thing that we sense from the tone of this comment so they are going after that perceived weakness.

I am a very easy going guy who dislikes confrontation, I also assume the people I am working with are my peers, and treat them as such.

FWIW I am more like you. I prefer to work with people like you and most of my colleagues are like this. However, when you are dealing with people that are NOT like this (and there are many of them out there), you have to change your game or get out of the game they are playing. It sucks but there are a great may people in the professional world that have no problem with conflict or that view "nice" people as weak people. Doesn't mean you have to change who you are but you would be well advised to change how you deal with this sort of person or they will walk all over you and not be bothered in the slightest by it.

Re: Ask HN: CTO wants me to leave

#270

Post by trevelyan »

7Figures2Commas wrote: post #251
sergiosgc wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd go for a shorter version, but: yes, you are right on. Important points: 1. Have legal counsel 2. Deal with the issue now, not later. I'd get a lawyer and fire the CTO. Small teams require absolute trust, and that is now breached. You'll find out in the process how the CEO aligns. Give your partner a heads up, but don't let yourself be moved from the task of firing the CTO.

> I'd get a lawyer and fire the CTO. You're jumping the gun. First, the way that the OP has framed his story indicates that he's not sure how he wants the situation to be resolved. One of the first questions any good attorney will ask him is "How would you ideally like the situation resolved?" The attorney can suggest possibilities, but unless the OP knows what he wants, an attorney can only be of so much help. Secon…

A growing business could easily find a sinecurial position for a founder that had outgrown his or her usefulness: the only reason to jettison this guy in such an amateur fashion is to avoid paying his salary or position him for dilution in future funding rounds.

My guess is that the CEO is dealing with investor pressure and the CTO has been parachuted in by whoever is funding them, likely on the understanding that future funding is contingent on making the hire and "improving the team". The fact that they are worried about keeping him on through the next round suggests that these promises aren't even reliable. In which case this is a malevolent power play and there is no good reason for him to roll over -- the most likely outcome of this all is that the company dies.

And either way -- this is a really horrible decision on the part of the CEO as well. Because what happens to HIM once his technical cofounder is gone? He'll be reliant on raising capital to fund an even more expensive team and won't even have the option of saying no and going back to running the business with the original team, something which is the most likely GOOD outcome for any small business and the only option that gives them any real leverage against outside investors.

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