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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#261

Post by willcipriano »

CSSer wrote: post #151
sethammons wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A man approached a street artist making amazing paintings and asked for one. About 2 minutes later, the artwork completed, and the artist asked for the fee. The man balked at the price. "What!? This only took a couple of minutes!" "No," replied the artist, "this took me my whole life."

Also see the parable of the plumber and the water heater: http://www.readersadvice.com/mmeade/musings/plumber.html

A real life version of that, that is closer to software dev in my opinon.

I knew a plumber who was called out on Christmas Eve to deal with a clogged toilet. He arrives at the place and it's a beautiful mansion, full of well dressed guests eating wine and cheese. He goes into the bathroom and begins to resolve the issue when the homeowner comes over to dispute his price, "$500 for 15 minutes of work, how can you justify that?", the plumber reaches into the toilet grabs a handful of the contents and squeezes them between his fingers "Because I am willing to do this". The homeowner ran away disgusted, his bill was paid in full.

Writing software for bureaucratic organizations loaded with non-technical management sucks. We get paid what we do because nobody else wants to do it.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#262

Post by yolovoe »

notreallyserio wrote: post #178
notJim wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... In fact, this is so common that I can name the exact people at several jobs I've had. And I could mention them to my coworkers and they'd know exactly what these people's reputation are. Our feeling toward them is a mix of being impressed and being embarrassed. Impressed because there's something to be said for someone who works the system to their adv…

I want to be ambitious and enjoy my work, but most of it is REST or similar level work. Those rare times I have an interesting project I end up stuck waiting for information or eventually code review (for days). Nowadays I just want out. I'll get that feeling doing my own thing with no blockers but time and myself. I'm not at all convinced this is generally possible at any company (based on what I've heard from frien…

I used to feel the same. The work I was doing at the last startup was just REST level work. Work at current team at Amazon was fun at first with new serverless technologies, but I ramped up in a month and it's now data pipelines and full stack development and integrations that is better than REST level work but still getting boring. The engineers are all much better and processes are solid, but I wanted out.

Now, I'm joining a systems/kernel team working right above hardware that drives EC2 servers.

Believe me, lots of good work is out there. Join a large company and look into internally transferring into an interesting role. I heard back from DynamoDB, Lambda, and so many other cool teams while I was considering transferring out of the current team. There's loads of interesting work at the bigger companies.

There is good work at some startups too, I'm sure, but it's easier to try different teams at a FAANG than switch between small companies.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#263

Post by Glyptodon »

I can't speak for other developers, but I've had periods of low productivity that were similar to what you describe, but they were mostly abnormal, for example when I was mentally "done" with a particular job, but hadn't been able to find something else.

That said, I think I've got about 6 hours of real productivity available a day on average, expandable when doing urgent wrote work or for an urgent need. I've done some time on the 80 hour crew and it's bad for you.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#264

Post by throwthroyaboat »

ConfessionTime wrote: post #242
ineptech wrote: post #168

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

I guess one thing that hasn't been clarified is how much time you spend dedicated work, v.s. actually working? Possibly the OP is assuming that you are only putting in effort 5-10 hours, but still at your desk (or equivalent) for the remaining 30-35, which is the soul-crushing waste-of-time part. If you are literally only spending 5-10 hours on work a week, and the remainder on avocational activities that you find fulling, then that sounds pretty ideal.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#265

Post by achillesheels »

dlisboa wrote: post #255
ConfessionTime wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

Do you find that in the hours you're not working you're constantly worried that you'll be "found out"? If so the problem is those are wasted hours, you can't just sit down and read or travel because you're still supposedly working. Which means it doesn't really matter that you're not working, you're just not doing anything productive. That leads to doing nothing but mucking about on the Internet, not actually further…

Well said! Human cultivation, such as "deep reading" - like reading Descartes or Leonard Euler - can't be sustained when one is so easily interrupted at work.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#266

Post by machiaweliczny »

wccrawford wrote: post #177
throwaway1777 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is the compensation is not based on how hard you work but the value you provide and what the market will support. Of course upper management works roughly the same hours as everyone else, but they also have far more responsibility.

Actually, compensation is based on what the company has to pay . There are some other rules, like they have to (overall) pay less than they make from the output. But in general, a company never pays their employees more than they think they have to. 10x programmers don't make 10x the pay. They might make slightly more, but not even 2x what a 1x programmer (of the same level, no comparing seniors to juniors) makes at…

Sad truth.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#267

Post by wonderwonder »

2-718-281-828 wrote: post #195
cattown wrote: post #132

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

well put! I work in consulting for a large corporation and they pay for me more than 1000 Euro per day. I don't see much of that money but I can't really complain about my salary. It's pretty good (not SV-good, though). Now on average I'd say I work no more than 4 hours. Some days even less. Occasionally I feel proud of that and even brag about it to friends. But deep down I feel how this is just not making me happy.…

It appears we live much of the same life. I work 3 to 4 hours a day at best, and part of that is the standup. Wife works hard for 8+ hours a day and makes a third of my salary. I want to be productive but I just cant seem to do more hours than that. Even those hours of work are broken up.

"his mental state comes with an inability to use the rest of the work day. I spend it procrastinating - which is actually more tiring than working for whatever reason"

I feel the same way. Difference is I actually really like my employer and I still cant focus for more than a few hours a day.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#268

Post by pradn »

cattown wrote: post #132

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

> I will say that this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health. Doing something you don't like, care about, or believe in for decades long periods of time can really mess with your sense of self worth and happiness in life. You only have one life, do something with it that is satisfying. Get out of the rat race.

I am a few years out of college and this hasn't quite crossed my mind. Perhaps I've now had enough years of work experience to start feeling the long term effects of how I feel about work. The effects of stress have been evident, certainly - weight gain, for example.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#270

Post by PragmaticPulp »

ineptech wrote: post #168

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

> You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you

Low output engineers can often coast for years before something forces them back on to the job market. Usually, routine layoffs force companies to take a hard look at who's producing and who's not, at which point the lowest productivity individuals are the most likely to be cut.

This is where the real problems begin: If someone has spent years or even a decade doing very little actual work, they're now effectively years behind their peers with similar career lengths. Even if they could cram enough to skate through interviews, they can struggle when forced to work at normal productivity levels in a normal organization. Years of accumulated habits can be hard to break.

I've interviewed a significant number of employees who (I suspect) fit this mold: They landed an easy job at a big company that didn't look too closely at their output, spent years coasting while doing little work as possible, but then something forces them out of the job and into interviews at other companies. It's surreal to speak to someone with a decade of confirmed experience but a level of knowledge equivalent to what I see out of the average motivated college graduate.

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