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Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

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Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#261

Post by bpiche »

richrichardsson wrote: post #152
rkangel wrote: post #56

6 months is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to judge a job and leave it. The important thing is to be able to defend it in future interviews, and do so in a reasoned way rather than an emotional one. For example instead of "the team were incredibly frustrating to work with and ignored all my suggestions", instead "the culture made it very hard to do quality engineering, which over time was demoralising". Sweepi…

> 6 months is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to judge a job and leave it. Most jobs I've ever had in the UK came with a "probation" period of 6 months, where the employer could terminate the position with a one week notice (or even shorter if I was the cause of some particularly nasty problem), and after 6 months a review would be conducted to decide if the position was going to be offered on a more permanent…

The US is going this way, with the normalization of contract work for very technical roles. I think it bled over from software-adjacent roles like graphic design and IT support. Regardless, you're going to see more 6 month 'try before you buy' contracts for PhDs with 10 years of engineering experience, than full time roles today. It makes sense for less mission critical roles I suppose, but I don't understand why organizations are willing to put so much at stake by offering a shit sandwich for mission critical roles. And they wonder why there is a hiring issue today.

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#262

Post by gregjor »

wly_cdgr wrote: post #186
gregjor wrote: post #31

It's not unprofessional to quit an unfulfilling job. It's unprofessional to quit without notice (since you're a senior person), or to badmouth the company online, to recruiters, or to future prospective employers. If anyone asks why you quit you should say "I found a better opportunity." If you quit without another job lined up you may get asked in the future to explain the gap, so have an explanation that doesn't ma…

It's unprofessional to quit with significantly less notice than the company would give you. If the company wouldn't give you any, you don't owe them any

In the US neither side is required (in general, some exceptions appy) to give notice, or a reason, to terminate employment. For more senior jobs the custom is to give notice when you quit. Employers generally have a process of reviews and warnings that let employees know when they aren't performing, so getting fired without notice happens because of gross misbehavior or negligence.

Even if the employer has a habit of letting people go without notice or severance, it's still professional to give the employer notice. I think a person should behave ethically and professionally regardless of what the other side does. Of course sometimes the situation is so bad that walking out with no notice is the only choice, but in my experience those kinds of workplaces are rare and I had plenty of time to notice the dysfunction and plan a graceful exit.

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#263

Post by SgtBastard »

thehappypm wrote: post #229
throwawaycuriou wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The forces behind burnout don't decrease just by operating as a senior.

My point is that seniority implies a certain level of professionalism. If you're getting burned out you're not at that level.

Perhaps consider that a "Senior" Product Manager at a mid-size company doesn't have the same perspectives of actual engineers at much larger companies.

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#264

Post by bawolff »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #32
bawolff wrote: post #22

Its a job not a slave relationship. You don't need a reason to quit (with notice) other then "I feel like it"

Presumably his paychecks aren't bouncing.

This is kind of a tagent, but I think inability to quit is much more the defining characteristic of slavery than not being paid. Although obviously slaves aren't usually compensated reasonably if at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labour#Payment_for_unfr...

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#265

Post by crate_barre »

tekstar wrote: post #107

Just to play the devil's advocate for a moment here, I've seen many developers join and instead of learning what is around and why it's there, just see everything that existed before they joined as a Bad Decision that Needs To Change To Fit My Expectations. In complex situations sometimes the best solution looks nothing like a textbook Best Practice. That being said, what you're describing sounds like a shit show. I'…

One needs to delineate between challenging features/business logic versus obstructionist architecture. The former is fine, you are dealing with a difficult problem space. The latter is not, it causes burnout since straight forward things are not straightforward to do. The latter causes pain and stress.

Business rarely has the capacity to see the blowback of the latter where the product is not nimble/flexible, and there is a clear velocity hit across the board.

From my experience, business rarely has empathy for the latter.

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#266

Post by throwawayboise »

bpiche wrote: post #261
richrichardsson wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 6 months is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to judge a job and leave it. Most jobs I've ever had in the UK came with a "probation" period of 6 months, where the employer could terminate the position with a one week notice (or even shorter if I was the cause of some particularly nasty problem), and after 6 months a review would be conducted to decide if the position was going to be offered on a more permanent…

The US is going this way, with the normalization of contract work for very technical roles. I think it bled over from software-adjacent roles like graphic design and IT support. Regardless, you're going to see more 6 month 'try before you buy' contracts for PhDs with 10 years of engineering experience, than full time roles today. It makes sense for less mission critical roles I suppose, but I don't understand why org…

Going this way? It's been this way for decades. Every job I've ever had began with a probationary period, generally 30 - 90 days, maybe one or two were longer.

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#267

Post by throwawayboise »

d_watt wrote: post #79
MadeThisToReply wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You two are discussing this as if it's specific to Germany... is it really that rare? Every tech job I've ever had in the UK (admittedly not a huge sample size) has had some kind of probationary period baked into the contract, although the exact details vary (e.g. number of months considered probation, notice period while on probation.) Are there countries where this isn't a thing?

It's not as common in the US, since most states are at will, either side always can give notice at any time for any/no reason (other than targeting protected groups / whistleblowing, etc), there's not as much point to a probationary period.

At many (well managed) US companies, there is a more formal HR process for dealing with poor performance, such as formal reviews, action plans, etc. that does not apply during the initial probationary period.

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#268

Post by Viliam1234 »

sidr wrote: post #220
whiddershins wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This … isn’t the advice I would give. I would personally never say negative things about a previous employer regardless of how carefully worded.

"Everything was going perfect. I loved my job and the people I worked with, I just left because I am prone to doing that when there are no issues whatsoever."

If I remember it correctly, the recommended spin is: "I wanted a greater challenge". The other side probably realizes that this is bullshit, but will appreciate your discretion.

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#269

Post by gwbas1c »

d_watt wrote: post #79
MadeThisToReply wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You two are discussing this as if it's specific to Germany... is it really that rare? Every tech job I've ever had in the UK (admittedly not a huge sample size) has had some kind of probationary period baked into the contract, although the exact details vary (e.g. number of months considered probation, notice period while on probation.) Are there countries where this isn't a thing?

It's not as common in the US, since most states are at will, either side always can give notice at any time for any/no reason (other than targeting protected groups / whistleblowing, etc), there's not as much point to a probationary period.

> It's not as common in the US

But culturally many companies operate that way. It's easy to fire someone within the first ~6 months; if you've been somewhere for awhile, you give longer than 6 weeks notice; and if you've been somewhere for awhile, you get severance.

Re: Ask HN: Is it unprofessional to leave a new job where everything is a mess?

#270

Post by multjoy »

richrichardsson wrote: post #152
rkangel wrote: post #56

6 months is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to judge a job and leave it. The important thing is to be able to defend it in future interviews, and do so in a reasoned way rather than an emotional one. For example instead of "the team were incredibly frustrating to work with and ignored all my suggestions", instead "the culture made it very hard to do quality engineering, which over time was demoralising". Sweepi…

> 6 months is a perfectly reasonable amount of time to judge a job and leave it. Most jobs I've ever had in the UK came with a "probation" period of 6 months, where the employer could terminate the position with a one week notice (or even shorter if I was the cause of some particularly nasty problem), and after 6 months a review would be conducted to decide if the position was going to be offered on a more permanent…

The probation period is pretty meaningless, except when there's a shorter notice period attached. You can be binned for any reason (or no reason) and have no right to go to tribunal until you've been there for two years, except in the case of a protected characteristic.
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