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Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

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Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#261

I specialize in data recovery / digital forensics tools, which require very low-level disk access to be able to read physical media at the block level. I doubt there will ever be an HTML5 standard for low-level disk access. But aside from my particular specialty, I also prefer any other software I use to be fully native. I'm surprised that's such a controversial thing to ask for these days. All I ask is so precious l…

Have you looked into webassembly and how browsers give access to filesystems[1], there could be hope for a future of high performant filesystem access. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/FileSystem

From the linked article:

This interface will not grant you access to the users filesystem. Instead you will have a "virtual drive" within the browser sandbox. If you want to gain access to the users filesystem you need to invoke the user by eg. installing a Chrome extension. The relevant Chrome API can be found here.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#262

Wasn't Steve Jobs' idea to have Web Apps for Iphone but Iphone team talked him into native apps for various reasons such as performance and security and he finally gave in. I would assume the same for desktop versus web apps but as time goes on I think web apps will prevail.

Apple always had native apps. Jobs said web only for third party apps in the first release.

Jailbreak App Store came out and lots of third party apps, then Apple opened up.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe they’re referring to the web as port 80/443 http(s) traffic. It’s the old World Wide Web vs internet distinction, if you will. Email really is just a protocol for message sending, and it lives on it’s own port with its own server. If you have an email client and access to an email server (POP/SMTP/however), you can use email over the internet but without the “web”. Basically, the web email client ought not…

It was the ambiguity of the word 'web' that tripped me up. You still need a network of computers for email to be useful.

`Web`[0] is shorthand for `World Wide Web` which is specifically about HTTP/HTTPS and/or the applications built on that protocol. It is an entirely unambiguous word in this context.

`Internet`[1] is distinct, and that's the general purpose network of networks that you refer to which the Web is built on top of.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Wide_Web

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#264

Native desktop apps are great. The reason that people don't write them is because users aren't on "the desktop". "The desktop" is split between OS X and Windows, and your Windows-app-compiled-for-Mac is going to annoy Mac users and your Mac-app-compiled-for-Windows is going to annoy Windows users. Then you realize that most users of computing devices actually just use their phone for everything, and your desktop app…

Concerning the desktop, I honestly don't see Windows users caring much about non-native UIs. Windows apps to this day are a hodgepodge of custom UIs. From driver utilities to everyday programs, there's little an average Windows user would identify as a "Windows UI". And even if, deviations are commonplace and accepted.

Linux of course doesn't have any standard toolkit, just two dominant ones. There's no real expectation of "looking native" here, either.

Which leaves macOS. And even there, the amount of users really caring about native UIs are a (loud and very present online) minority.

So really, on the Desktop, the only ones holding up true cross-platform UIs are a subset of Mac users.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#265
post #88

IMO desktop apps aren’t quite equivalent to native apps. Native apps look and behave in a consistent way. They have • Familiar UI primitives: - Controls and chrome are in the same place - Font sizes are the same across apps - Consistent icons and button shapes • Support standard keyboard shortcuts (including obscure ones that developers re-implementing these UIs might not know about) - All the Emacs-style keybindings…

Consistency is maybe overrated? I purposefully make my FF unlike the other apps on my system. I use a couple of workarounds to prevent OS level keybinds from working in some apps. Sometimes a completely purpose made UI is better, sometimes. In general, consistency [in desktop UI] is good, but there are good reasons to break it.

Depends heavily on the user community, use case, time-in-environment (short- and long-term), inter-user communication about application, and rate of change. There's almost certainly a set of interrelationships between these.

For a highly technical userbase, a highly bespoke UI may be defensible,even preferable, especially:

- User community is expert, highly skilled, and highly computer-literate.

- If daily-weekly time-in-environment is high. User "lives in" application.

- If lifetime time-in-environment is high. Users base career in application.

- If there's relatively little communication between users about application state, interactions, or activities. Put another way: users interact with the app, but not about the app with others (users, clients, management, techs).

- The UI avoids drastic change over time.

By contrast, reverse virtually any of these conditions and you'll want a UI that conforms closely to current standards:

- Users are inexpert, poorly computer-literate (the vast majority, see OECD computer skills study), or simply nontechnical with app.

- Time-in-environment is low. At the extreme, all users are one-time novices.

- If users must communicate with others regarding app state or tasks -- close management, team interaction, client / management interactions. All parties need a ready and clear mental model of the UI and state.

- If the UI changes drastically over time, it should do so consistently with all other major elements. (Both should change as little as possible.)

Somewhat more concretely, the absolute worst feature a UI can have is change. Users get confused, lose trust, and are burdened by obsolete knowledge. This afflicts both expert and nonexpert users, profoundly, though in somewhat different ways.

For very technical tools used principally creatively --- virtually all editors, development environments, and many reader/browser/search/analysis tools fit this description --- a highly distinctive (and customisable) interface may be appropriate for advanced users. This is a small, but generatively critical, user community. There's a requisite complexity to such tools, simplified UI comes at the cost of vastly less efficient performance.

Virtually all "weird" tools in heavy use today evolved from what were at the time of their creation, common motifs, at least within the environment of origin. Think of Unix, vi, emacs, Photoshop, Excel, and Eclipse, say.

For standard workflow, control, and transactional tools, highly standard UIs are preferred. Here, users are interacting closely with others regarding state or interactions with the interface, and clarity, consistency, and common knowledge of the UI and state changes matter. Point-of-sale systems, equipment controls, general monitors, enterprise applications, end-user/customer support tools, and the like.

Occasional-use, public use, and similar tools must be generally usable without training. Adherence to standard motifs is critically important. UIs and capabilities are generally simple.

The trade-offs:

- More expert users and more heavily-used tools can support more novel UIs.

- Less literate users, more unfamiliar tools, and greater communications about UI state and interactions, demand more standard UIs.

- Change is generally bad, but evolutionary change (within the tool) or conformant change (with the overall environment) are generally less disruptive than either sudden drastic or idiosyncratic changes.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#266
post #220

I specialize in data recovery / digital forensics tools, which require very low-level disk access to be able to read physical media at the block level. I doubt there will ever be an HTML5 standard for low-level disk access. But aside from my particular specialty, I also prefer any other software I use to be fully native. I'm surprised that's such a controversial thing to ask for these days. All I ask is so precious l…

I remember hanging out in /r/Unity3d and some newbie posted a download for their completed game. It was super basic - just a game where you move a cube around a grid, but the size of the game was insane, like half a gig. The dev who posted it seemed perplexed when people told him the game was 100x bigger than it should be.

He was probably expecting useful feedback or even praise.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#267
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i just use less for big files, convenience is a matter of taste

I don’t open big files at all. There’s no point. Files exist as data made to be transformed from one form to another. It is only worth looking at a file in its final form unless you are making some kind of edit. And even then, I make edits on large files through a series of commands, never opening the file. By thinking of files in this way, it becomes easy to create programmable tool chains for manipulation.

not everybody uses a computer for the same exact thing you use a computer for

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#268

We're building POS applications for major retailers, and for this kind of software, native is king and will stay for the foreseeable future (with a few exceptions confirming the rule, of course). These applications need tight integration with exotic hardware, must satisfy weird fiscal requirements often written with native applications in mind, must run rock-solid 24/7 with daily usage and predictable response times…

Yea but as a Point of Sale application for retailers.. you have the luxury of running on a consistent hardware platform.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#269
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t open big files at all. There’s no point. Files exist as data made to be transformed from one form to another. It is only worth looking at a file in its final form unless you are making some kind of edit. And even then, I make edits on large files through a series of commands, never opening the file. By thinking of files in this way, it becomes easy to create programmable tool chains for manipulation.

not everybody uses a computer for the same exact thing you use a computer for

Of course, if they did there would be no point in making my comment, it would be redundant.

Re: Ask HN: Is there still a place for native desktop apps?

#270
post #8

Lots of software would be better (from the user's POV) as a desktop app. However as a developer and as a software business owner/investor, it's (much) better to write web apps. So it depends on what you're asking here. Should you invest in desktop dev skills to further your career? No. Should you write your software idea as a desktop app if you want to make a business of it? Not if you can avoid it. If you're asking…

> However as a developer and as a software business owner/investor, it's (much) better to write web apps. Why do you say that?

Here's PG's response from 2001: http://www.paulgraham.com/road.html
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