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Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

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251–260 of 309 posts

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#251
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use mail forwarders on my custom domain so anything sent to me@mydomain.co is simply forwarded to myregular@gmail.com. Except the domain renewal fees, it's free. If Gmail blocks me, I can readdress the forwarding to hotmail or usa.net or whatever.

That works but to cover your bases you need some sort of regular IMAP backup as well.

I just use Thunderbird and tell it to keep everything local.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#252
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I did not say anything about not having data harvested. 2) Even if the data is being harvested, doesn't mean that there is any morality in trying to get a share of the profits. That doesn't make you smart, it makes you a cheap accomplice. 3) "free market" would apply only if all exchanged data were offered by those that own the data, and if they could determine how and when the data could be used. GDPR has shown a…

I think you underestimate the training/socializing effects of being raised with advertising, and the steps toward closing that gap already underway. You can buy discounted TVs (and in some places they are the only TVs you can buy), which clearly have advertisements on them that others do not. When more people wake up my bet is they will be accustomed to advertising, they will just want better advertising. And if one…

I replied in the other thread. The flaw in your argument is that the only way for "better advertisement" is through personal data selling.

Brave's model has shown that you can have a ad distribution system that gives more power to the users, the ads are still relevant, fraud is much more easily detected and it can still reward the users for their attention.

With zero knowledge proofs, you can even have a system where the advertisers only get to show ads for those that match certain criteria, but no personal data needs to be given away.

If you are working on anything that depends on direct exploitation of user data, I urge to go back to the drawing board and seriously consider the morality of it.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#253
post #30

When you put it this way, it's really quite remarkable how tenuous our hold is on even paid for digital services. There is really nothing you could do with a car to prompt the car maker to take it from you. And the state will only take it if you break the law in particularly dangerous ways. When it comes to other possessions it's even harder for anyone to take them away from you. If I take a kitchen knife and stab so…

That's the difference between products and services and between owning and renting.

Anything that you get from the internet is a service. Even connecting to the internet is a service. And providing a service is ongoing work.

What we need is recognizing services as essential and guaranteeing people has access to them. This is something for the government to do, and the guaranteeing access part is quite complicated when the service can be exploited like email.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#254
1. You are not overreacting. You have simply woken up to the truth in the online world. For others like Phone numbers and Address you do ( or should do ) have some protection under the rule of law.

2. Google has been like that since.... its inception? Which is why I have been Anti-Google ( one way or another ) since around 2004? Google just doesn't care. It is not in their DNA to care.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#255
post #16

In sensible jurisdictions, a tenant cannot be kicked out for non-payment of rent without a court order. That's right, a debtor who owes money to another cannot be booted without an independent government body approving it. So it's not inherently wrong to say a user of a free service should have some rights. In some situations, it's not fair to pull the rug out under people. I think that there will come a point where…

And as always it will backfire on users! Now it is impossible to find unlimited rentals, every contract has yearly extensions! In some countries landlords even rotate tenants every two years, else they would get extra rights from long stay.

The trick is to keep the rules reasonable.

If the owner could go to a small cases court and get a bad tenant kicked out with minimal cost, he wouldn't try so hard to defend against the rule.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#257
post #16

In sensible jurisdictions, a tenant cannot be kicked out for non-payment of rent without a court order. That's right, a debtor who owes money to another cannot be booted without an independent government body approving it. So it's not inherently wrong to say a user of a free service should have some rights. In some situations, it's not fair to pull the rug out under people. I think that there will come a point where…

decades ago in germany a court decided that people had a right to phone service and it could not be cut even without payment because that would cause an undue restriction to be able to function. (this was pre-internet, so i can't find a reference). there is a more recent court decision that states that service may only be cut if the lapse in payment is sufficiently high,

i believe similarly in the US you can't just take away someones car because without it they might not be able to get to work and probably would never be able to pay for their debt.

likewise having an email address is becoming a necessity in life and therefore closing an email account would make it difficult to function in todays society.

the same goes for having a bank account.

all these things should have legal protection.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#258
post #16

In sensible jurisdictions, a tenant cannot be kicked out for non-payment of rent without a court order. That's right, a debtor who owes money to another cannot be booted without an independent government body approving it. So it's not inherently wrong to say a user of a free service should have some rights. In some situations, it's not fair to pull the rug out under people. I think that there will come a point where…

And as always it will backfire on users! Now it is impossible to find unlimited rentals, every contract has yearly extensions! In some countries landlords even rotate tenants every two years, else they would get extra rights from long stay.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#259
post #51

> lost access to paid services that I had set up with social login I signed up to Quora with my Facebook account, back in the day. Deleted Facebook in 2013 and lost access to my Quora account, with no possible way to recover it. I haven't used a social login since. In my case, it was fairly harmless, but it made me realise how dangerous social login is. Every time there's a signup, I look for "signup with email". It'…

Social logins only carry your information and a token, and you can enter to your profile and add a password too (99% of the time). So, you can use social login (OpenID Connect in reailty), as an automated form filler and add your password, so your account will be effectively won't depend on that provider anymore. I use a lot of services like that.

How do people remember which social login they used for any given site? There are usually multiple and they overlap between sites and none work with every site.

Re: Ask HN: Should we own the free stuff we pay for?

#260

No, you're not overreacting :) it sucks. In theory, you agreed to all the ways they can screw you over when signing up. In reality of course no one can be reasonably expected to understand the full ramifications of multi-page terms of service. I'm happy that EU is pushing this ownership argument forward. GDPR seemed unreasonable just a few years ago, now it's the new standard. I also don't think it's the final destin…

it may not be a good idea, but we can't possibly expect a layperson to have more than one email address.
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