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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#251
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health I can relate to that. I used to work not more than it was required for being perceived as a very productive person (10-15 hours / week), but at some point I couldn't stand it. I co-founded a startup and for first two years I easily crossed 60 hours/week on average, yet I was much happier and had more energy than previously. Of c…

60 hour workweeks are absolutely sustainable? Desirable maybe not, but I’ve known lots of people who have worked ten hours a day six days a week. Especially if they don’t have other commitments.

It depends on the type of work being done

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#252
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health I can relate to that. I used to work not more than it was required for being perceived as a very productive person (10-15 hours / week), but at some point I couldn't stand it. I co-founded a startup and for first two years I easily crossed 60 hours/week on average, yet I was much happier and had more energy than previously. Of c…

60 hour workweeks are absolutely sustainable? Desirable maybe not, but I’ve known lots of people who have worked ten hours a day six days a week. Especially if they don’t have other commitments.

Yeah, it depends on the work and the person. I've had periods at my company where 60h absolutely would have been sustainable for what I was working on at the time, and periods at the same company where 40h is still headed towards burnout. And I've experienced much worse elsewhere. I actually really like the periods where I have stable things that give back enough energy to keep me sustainable at 60h.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also depends on the company. I've worked at companies where the #1 project can change weekly and by that I mean the previous project is completely abandoned for the new shiny. If you've worked at a place like this (there are lots of them), you have to not burn yourself out. It is very demoralizing to give your all to a UI just to have it literally thrown away. Sometimes slow rolling can let you move things forward…

With my current manager this has become a skill I'm honing. He's senile and asks for all sorts of things he will have forgotten about in a few days. So I slow roll any new idea he gets excited about until it has percolated for at least a week or two. The trick is figuring out how to wait long enough to avoid doing throw-away work without waiting long enough that he feels ignored. But, like I said, he's senile, so tha…

For my previous boss, I have the rule of 3. Until he asked for something 3 times, I just said "yep" and didn't start it. If he asked three times, he wasn't going to forget so time to start moving it forward.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#254

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

An American investment banker was at the pier of a small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch them.

The Mexican replied, “only a little while.” The American then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to support his family’s immediate needs.

The American then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your time?” The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little, play with my children, take siestas with my wife, stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full and busy life.”

The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard MBA and could help you. You should spend more time fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would control the product, processing, and distribution. You would need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New York City, where you will run your expanding enterprise.”

The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this all take?”

To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.” “But what then?” Asked the Mexican.

The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part. When the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your company stock to the public and become very rich, you would make millions!”

“Millions – then what?”

The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a small coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip wine and play your guitar with your amigos.”

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#255

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

Do you find that in the hours you're not working you're constantly worried that you'll be "found out"? If so the problem is those are wasted hours, you can't just sit down and read or travel because you're still supposedly working. Which means it doesn't really matter that you're not working, you're just not doing anything productive.

That leads to doing nothing but mucking about on the Internet, not actually furthering anything for yourself. So it can have an impact on you mentally. I've felt that myself before.

Now, some people have a well-defined work output where the boss just says "I want this, that's all". So if you do it in 3 hours in one day or 40 hours in one week, it doesn't matter, meaning you can actually use those other hours for yourself.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did I work 20-30 minutes, or have I been working for a day or two? I would say a day or two, and the 20-30 minutes was the time needed to produce the deliverable of that work. I would say that I do this too. There's a lot of stuff I can more or less do on autopilot and stuff that requires actual attention and finesse , for lack of a better word. I feel like management thinks that I'm good at my job for all of the a…

Or just go and have a shower in the afternoon. It's the best remedy to an afternoon dip I know and one of the major benefits of working from home. It's a great place to solve problems before getting down to coding. Doing the dishes is indeed a good one too.

Doing the dishes or other chores doesn't work for me at all but showers are great. When I was at Apple one of the few unalloyed good aspects of the spaceship campus were every section had showers available.

I'd take a brisk walk around the spaceship and then hit a shower. It was a great way for me to avoid an afternoon slump and let me do a lot of background processing in relative peace.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#257

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

" This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. " It's definitely not acceptable. It's a form of White Collar / 1st World Corruption. Taking money from people with expectation of value, while not providing that value is Fraud. Just because we don't always have great oversight, does not abnegate our responsibilities towards trying to do a good job. This notion of 'I Can Get Away With It' and '…

I think the OP is providing value, just at a rate which can't be calculated using 19th century industrial era compensation schedules, i.e. the 8-hour work day. OK, it actually became shorter than before, but the main point is that software is not the same as machining shoes.

There's a difference between how effective the OP is at being a team player/contributor, and a worm who tries climbing the social ladder with as little risk to his/her self which I believe you allude to. It seems to me the OP is not the ambitious type and found his place in the industrial matrix.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#258
post #75
post #55

> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…

Large companies have a tendency to throw up all sorts of impediments to actually getting shit done. Simple tasks can take 3 weeks because there are 7-9 dependencies throwing sand in the gears. This not only provides plenty of cover for not getting stuff done it also saps the motivation to get it done quickly. Like, if X team sits on your request for a week that prevents Y feature from getting out are you really gonna…

This is spot-on.

I'm used to small, get-things-done environments (startups, small dev shops).

Transitioning to working within a much more "corporate" environment (not that the actual dev team is any bigger) I struggled with the endless gatekeeping and bureaucracy because it was impeding us ... getting stuff /done/.

Once you realise they're not optimising for that goal, I feel less frustrated and have scaled back my efforts accordingly.

Want to do everything via PR, and have andless code-janitoring stylistic bollox ? Fine, I'll do that - but I'm not going to chase you to close it.

Want to spend hours in planning guff and pointless retrospective naval-gazing? Great, I can join the call on mute and get on with something else.

About 10-15 hours actual work per week is fine. "Office Space" is just as true today as it was when it was filmed.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#259
I have periods like these. And then I have periods where I obsess about work, and about not producing enough, which makes me work extra hours to compensate. After 20 years in development I think this is "sort of" normal, not for everyone and especilly not at every company. In my experience its more common the larger the comany gets. First, its easier to not be noticed too much, and then there is the normal inefficiencies which makes it so thay you might not even be _able_ to be productive at work.

At the moment, I have been tasked with "test stability". I am unsure how exactly to proceed, and I have already mentioned that repeatedly running 2 hour tests to see where they fail, and when, is very time-consuming and inefficient, but people around me simply are expecting me to be somewhat inefficient at the moment. Having worked at exclusively large workplaces the last 10 or so years I am getting used to this. Also having worked on safety-rated systems conditions you to take it slooow, never rush things. Taking time is much more ok than being wrong.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#260
> Harvard

I wonder how much this plays into your being left alone and not being challenged by your co-workers. My guess is a lot. I'm sure the cachet of being an "Harvard Guy" has deterred many from even trying and simply assume you know what you're doing etc.

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