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Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

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Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#251

Post by pedalpete »

As an SE, I think that no-code is great. It lets us focus on the more interesting and challenging problems. Here's how we approached that in my current start-up.

We built the website on Squarespace ( a tiny bit of custom JS because I wanted a specific UX, but minor). When we are fully launched and selling product, we'll probably continue to use squarespace, but we'll see. It suits us for marketing purposes and capturing interest now.

At the same time, we're working in the hardware space (healthtech building an EEG), so we write all of our firmware, and we've got AI running on google cloud, so all the data pipelines that go along with that.

We're building the front-end for our mobile app, but using Google Firebase for the user account, and other simple user-data stuff that we need. I consider Firebase to be mostly no-code, I code up the front-end, but don't need to do anything on the backend.

The more interesting thing I've heard of recently is Fl{0} (https://fl0.com). They're a Sydney based start-up that is building a low-code style backend system. I'm not completely sure I get it, maybe it's just another version of nodeRed, and other similar tools.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#252

Post by jrochkind1 »

redisman wrote: post #67
meheleventyone wrote: post #38

It's weird from the perspective of game development because it's so obvious. A lot of time is spent on development tools because making a modern game is a very complex undertaking that is highly data-driven. A large amount of game tools are #nocode not because it's a movement but because it's useful. A classic example is level design tools that are much more about spatial design with some coupling between entities in…

I feel like there is a distinction between tools and no code and these are just tools. You can maybe prototype a game mechanic if it’s not very unique with drag and drop but it’ll never scale to production. By the end the game code will have thousands of special cases which would make the nice no code experience a complete Frankenstein monster

> I feel like there is a distinction between tools and no code and these are just tools.

How would you describe the difference?

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#253

Post by TruthWillHurt »

Doesn't work. And I've had practical experience using low-code platforms, "selling" them and even built a couple myself.

First - there's no complete solution. notice how they all have a "custom code" feature for you to fill in what's missing using JS or proprietery language. And you need a developer for that. These platform only work so long as you stick exactly to the use-case they had in mind.

Second - Business/non-dev users don't have the skills nor the inclination to use these platforms. It may look simple, just drag'n'drop, connect the dots, But what if it fails? why did it fail? when will it fail? they don't have the experience and mindset to debug and account for edge cases, and they don't even want to learn how to do it! no matter how easy the no-code platform is.

These conclusions I payed for in blood, sweat and money.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#254

Post by jrochkind1 »

tqwhite wrote: post #133

I have been a professional programmer for forty years. In the eighties, there was a no-code desktop relational database application called Helix. I continue to think that it belongs on the same shelf as Excel in the UI hall of fame. Like Excel, people made applications with it. Unlike Excel, it created a server product in the mid-eighties that allowed it to become an IT platform. Small business owners who had hacked…

I wonder if you could find any 'enterprise' system at a business of any size that's lasted 25 years, if it would have much the same problems. And if you can't find many enterprise systems that lasted 25 years, that says something to, in Helix's favor. (some of the ones you can are... COBOL I guess?)

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#255

Post by prepend »

nitrogen wrote: post #185
prepend wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve had a different experience with PowerAutomate. Both as a no-coder and a user. As a user the UX is horrible and I’m now swamped with terrible “apps” or “workflows” that people try to get me to use and fail for arcane reasons. Or are just ugly or brittle. As a no-coder the tools are hit or miss, the docs are bad, and widgets frequently don’t work due to my licensing and there’s no way to know other than to try and…

It has such promise as the shell scripting equivalent for the cloud what shell was to PCs. What ever happened to Yahoo Pipes?

I really miss yahoo pipes.

I played with Huginn a bit, but it’s a steeper learning curve.

I feel like the promise of the Internet has really been blocked off my adding in some nice business models. So now companies don’t want interoperability and orchestration as that stuff just reduces revenue. Why would goog/face/etc want us spending less time doing mundane tasks. They want us spending the max amount of manual stuff as long as we don’t quit.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#256

Post by nostrademons »

Not a bad thing, but you should understand the economic ramifications of it.

"No code" is basically commodification. For some subset of IT tasks, there are now tools you can use to achieve your goals without employing a software engineer. Great - it makes everybody more productive when humans can be replaced by software.

But note that commodity markets, by definition, are low-profit. If you can use some cheap off-the-shelf tool to achieve a goal, so can all your competitors. So people thinking they're going to build the next great billion-dollar web startup off of Wix or Shopify are probably going to be disappointed. They can build a great web startup, but so can everybody else. You can no longer make life-changing sums of money just by being able to throw together a website.

It's more useful to businesses whose competitive advantage is elsewhere. If you make complicated hardware, for example, and just want to be able to sell it without paying the Amazon tax, these tools are great.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#257

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

jlarocco wrote: post #250

I think it's great to see the commoditization of solved problems. On the other hand, I'm not surprised to see developers hating on the idea because our industry has spent decades telling everybody these are difficult problems and they need to hire experts to help solve them.

I had to fix a SharePoint workflow that indefinitely kicked off several workflows, and each workflow kicked off other workflows all being stuck in loops. A single workflow could have thousands of workflows kicking off...

Guess who they let make something that simple? Some generic business analyst who left and nobody else knew how to support it.

That second last word there is why developers will never go away.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#258

Post by winterplace »

ethbr0 wrote: post #189
wonderwonder wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think this as well, that No Code was not a real development to production level option. I have very much been proven wrong. I transition recently from 15+ years as a developer to contracting for a no code platform. Virtually everything a regular web dev can do in code can be done in no code. Sometimes its easier to do in code and sometimes it is much easier to do in no code so mileage may vary but no code i…

I've been consulting in no-code platforms, in addition to writing actual code, for about 8 years. Producing something that works isn't the problem. Maintaining it is. The legacy codebases from this stuff are dumpster fires, because most of the tools are closed enough ecosystems that the companies supporting them have to reinvent every programming best practice from the last 30 years. 'Version control? Sure, that's a…

Maintainability is always the issue, even for the things made from code.

What do you think will happen if the no-code platforms become open source?

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#259

Post by bedobi »

You don't need to learn to code, and neither do your kids.

I'm a Software Developer, but I don't see why everyone should have to, or feel like they have to, learn to code.

In general, kids and adults alike, but especially kids, should spend more time being active, around others (within reason, these are extraordinary times), and outside - not in front of computer screens.

Not everyone is cut out for or interested in coding, just like not everyone is cut out for or interested in medicine, law, a trade or literally anything else.

That's not a value judgement or a judgement of people's intelligence or lack thereof (unlike a lot of techies, I don't believe we're smarter than anyone else) or a belief that you can't acquire or develop skills - it's just fact.

Re: Ask HN: What do you think about the no-code movement?

#260

Post by jollybean »

It depends a lot. If you think of Wix/Shopify as 'no code' they are extremely powerful tools.

Lower than that, it becomes complicated as we don't have an easy way of abstracting front/back end, the business logic is still business logic.

Some things to help designers do higher level stuff, like layout, but still work below that level of abstraction is a bonus, but this is surprisingly very hard.

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