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Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

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Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#252

Send this letter to your manager and your manager's manager. [Manager Names] My time at [Company Name] has been a great experience. It has been a pleasure working with you. As you may know I created [ Open source project ] on [Date] and have enjoyed growing the product and user base. Building and supporting successful products is something I enjoy and will be looking for opportunities to do that outside of my current…

This won't mitigate the claim the company has on the IP, unfortunately.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#253
post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, plenty of stuff is unenforceable in contracts. Is there any evidence that this particular sort of extremely common clause is in that set?

The fact that the employer/employee relationship is so carefully controlled (specifically to limit the power the employer wields over the employee outside employment) is what makes me suspect that at least some jurisdictions would decline to enforce an employment contract provision that gave the employer ownership over all IP the employee produces, even if the IP is produced off-hours, without use of the employer's e…

At issue is he says that what he created is within the realm/market of his employer. That would be akin to an Intel engineer saying "I designed another microchip for computers but I promise I was doing this for me and not for Intel so its mine." You cant do some work on specific sector A for your employer and then do some other work in specific sector A on your own and now expect the employer to ask, justifiably, "who decided the dividing line here?"

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#254
post #164

"the product directly relates to what my employer does so I've sort of cornered myself in a bad place" Yeah, that makes it complicated. Even the advice to get a lawyer is tricky, as it could telegraph intent and put you even further in a corner. I suppose a consultation is fine, but I would be very careful about letting them know you retained one.

Nonsense. OP needs to get a lawyer. There's no harm in letting them know they've retained one -- most savvy employees have. On the other hand, the risk vector here is from the employee already making the cardinal mistake of working on something during off hours that directly competes with employer's line of business. That's where the battle is likely already lost, unless they live in a state like CA where noncompetes…

"Nonsense"

Pretty aggressive opener. Is that really necessary?

"There's no harm in letting them know they've retained one"

It will, for sure, trigger an internal discussion, and maybe some defensive moves like trolling logs or making a copy of his work PC drive. For example, what do you suppose the chances are that the OP navigated to his GitHub repo from a work PC?

How is advising caution in this situation "nonsense"? I would weigh the consequences of telling them I had a lawyer, and evaluate anything else I should probably do before telling them.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#255
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couple that with the point that; In hindsight, I also made some mistakes in how I went about evangelizing it. It sounds like the author implied the company actually had something to do with whatever it is. That definitely makes it an unsanctioned overtime project rather than something separate like a side project.

> That definitely makes it an unsanctioned overtime project rather than something separate like a side project. Is it overtime if you were never paid for it? How does unpaid work have to be 'sanctioned'?

>Is it overtime if you were never paid for it?

Sadly, for programmers in the US, overtime is essentially always unpaid. When you e.g. hear about game developers doing 80hr/week crunch time, they're not getting paid extra for that.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#256
post #142
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have this concern too that by putting something out there without permission as an employee you may have done harm to the company. You need a lawyer. You may also want to consider hiring a coach to help you develop a voice within the corporate setting so that you can better influence the direction of products without having to build an alternative in your precious spare time. And if the company doesn’t currently ha…

Can you please elaborate on “coach to help you develop a voice within the corporate setting”? What are these coaches called? Can you link to an example?

It sounds like to me that rather than interact with his colleagues to ensure their enterprise product was built incorporating the approaches he took in his package, he just went a built his package in isolation and then pushed it to github. Was that because the organization was ignoring his input, or he wasn’t in the right position to influence the direction or maybe he saw an unserved niche that the company wasn’t serving. or maybe it was just a drive to do something that needed to be explored. Either way, something got created. And that’s good. You never want to stifle creation sometimes that drive to create outside of work helps exercise part of the brain that helps you break through hurdles at work. Whatever got produced was a gift. The question is now what to do with that gift? I get the sense that OP is searching for how exactly to communicate with his company. The advice to seek counsel is sound. But counsel isn’t going to all of a sudden make him a great strategic-thinking leader in the eyes of his employer. That is something that will take work and practice if that’s what he is seeking. He can read books, he can take classes or he can find a business coach that will give him critical feedback and mentoring. In the past senior members of the organization might mentor junior people into leadership positions but I think unfortunately that art has been lost. So probably the best path would be to find someone who can do this 1:1 outside the org.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#257

Surprised that no one has mentioned that you should first review the employment doc you signed. In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them. Getting a lawyer involved may just turn in to an expensive and antagonistic experience that winds up with you simply ending up....with them owning the IP. One thing to consider- spin off your side project and try to get your employer as your first customer or as t…

When your company wants your side project, you should be polite. Say "no thank you"

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#258
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In many (most) cases any IP you create does belong to them I've heard this many times before but what are the limits to this? Say you work at software company x and on the weekends at home you are coding a project completely unrelated to work, a dating app, a mobile game, whatever. How can any contract be all encompassing as to legally allow that?

Such clauses would get immediately thrown out.

Please don't make comments like this, particularly in threads where OP is probably misunderstanding their legal situation and about to be extremely disappointed.

It is absolutely routine for employment contracts for software developers to transfer the corresponding IP to the employer. It's the main asset the employee is being hired to create!

It is common in fair and reasonable employment contracts for the standard for what is covered to be something like anything done on work time, using work resources, or related to work activities. The legalese varies from place to place, but if the employment contract includes wording like "in the course of your employment" then it probably means something along these lines, again depending on your local laws.

Some employers do try to include much more wide-ranging grabs, potentially any IP created by a salaried employee during the period of their employment. I normally recommend against signing any contract that includes these, not least because it says something about what type of employer you're dealing with. It's true that the situation is less clear in this case, because in some jurisdictions such terms might be considered overly broad and so not stand up to challenge, but you really need a local lawyer to advise you about this because the rules vary widely from place to place. In any case, since OP has told us that the project in question is directly related to what they do at work, this aspect probably isn't relevant to today's discussion.

OP, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but unless there are important details you've omitted or your employment contract is unusually liberal, you probably don't have much of a leg to stand on here. It's quite likely that your employer has actually owned all of the relevant IP from day one.

That would probably mean you wouldn't be entitled to any sort of compensation for it. (This isn't to say that your employer might not offer something to maintain good will and keep you on-side, but that's a different matter.)

More than that, it would potentially also mean you never had any legal right to open source it yourself, if the copyright was never yours so you never had any power to license it. That in turn could mean anyone redistributing it has been infringing your employer's copyright all along and the employer could even sue them. The employer could also take the whole project back closed source, or do anything else legal they want to do with it. (Again, this isn't to say they will actually do any of these things, but the employer being nicer than the worst case isn't a problem.)

On top of all of that, if the project is in any way in competition with what you do at work, you may have violated other conditions of your employment, which as with so much of this stuff may end up changing nothing or could have quite profound implications.

Short version: You do need a local lawyer who works in this field, right now. They will help you to understand your real situation, which no-one here can do properly. They may well advise you to simply hand everything over, and perhaps to seek some sort of written confirmation from the employer that they don't consider you to have violated any other aspects of your employment contract and the matter is then settled. If your employer is into open source and sees the value in the community you've built, you might get away with that. On the other hand, if they're sufficiently aware and litigious to go after your project in the first place, things could be much worse, and then you definitely want to have proper advice before you do or say anything else.

Re: Ask HN: My company wants my side project. What can I do?

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These things all depend on the country and state/province in which you are employed. Whenever this topic comes up on HN, all these armchair lawyers come out of the woodwork and start making blanket statements about what they are "pretty sure" is allowed, but this issue is dependent on what's in your contract, and what your national and/or local laws allow companies to claim. "Talk to a lawyer" is the best answer to s…

totally agree with the above, but I'd like to point out that any contract is an agreement between two parties. If the two parties involved decide to change that agreement amicably, that's fine. Court battles are the last resort, not the first move. So even if the legal opinion is that you don't have a leg to stand on, you could still get everything you want if your employer agrees to it. I would try to negotiate from…

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