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Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?

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Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?

#251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> my life at Google was actually one of the least interesting I am assuming, you don't really care about living an interesting life as you traded an interesting life for one that insn't. Also, when I say "day laborer" I am not talking about educated people who do that for a while. I am talking about ppl stuck in that situation with no way out.

I was a day laborer before I went into tech or got an education. And (like most people, I suspect) I do care about living an interesting life-- I just didn't know that I was trading that away. Didn't figure it out for a long time, actually.

> I do care about living an interesting life

Why can't you simply reverse your course of action though. Now that you have better understanding of both sides of it.

Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?

#252
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The really interesting jobs are absolutely held by Phds. That wholly depends on your definition of interesting. I don't have a PhD. I've written software that taught literacy to kids, helped people pay their bills online (back in 1999, when this was novel), written full ML systems (15 years ago, before the advent of open source ml packages), co-founded a YC company, and now I'm helping people rediscover the images…

None of it qualify as interesting to peopple interested by phds.

Exactly my point, which seems to be eluding many others.

People who are interested in a PHD, aren't interested (most likely) in your CRUD / another run of the mill app.

Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was a day laborer before I went into tech or got an education. And (like most people, I suspect) I do care about living an interesting life-- I just didn't know that I was trading that away. Didn't figure it out for a long time, actually.

> I do care about living an interesting life Why can't you simply reverse your course of action though. Now that you have better understanding of both sides of it.

I did. I left Google to take a job that is both more interesting and that leaves me more time to do interesting things.

Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?

#254
In a discussion about PhD's nobody has as yet mentioned Freeman Dyson?

- https://www.quantamagazine.org/a-math-puzzle-worthy-of-freem...

- https://old.reddit.com/r/Physics/comments/21h1xv/freeman_dys...

On the other hand, i myself feel that, if you have the mental inclination and can afford to do a PhD, one should do it. It gives you a greater probability of actually contributing to Humanity's collective knowledge base.

Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?

#256
My PhD is in mechanical engineering with a minor in computer science. I would just remind you that a PhD is a research degree. If you really don't like research, it may not be for you. You should also be quite good at math since PhD-level work in CS is very math-oriented. The comments about the financial costs are also something to keep in mind. You shouldn't expect a PhD to be a net positive financially over your working life. What it can do is give you the ability to tackle a wider array of projects during your career along with the confidence to know you're capable of working in new fields. I've worked in spacecraft engineering, as a research professor in medicine, as a self-employed software developer, and am now working on a robotics project of my own design. Tackling new fields is not a problem because I know I can do the research necessary to get up to speed. Maybe I'd have the same attitude with only a MS, but I doubt it.

Re: Ask HN: Will getting a PhD lead to a more interesting life?

#257
I left my PhD program in CS (specifically, compilers).

I began working after graduation with a job at a (very) small Chicago start-up. I was the first engineer. I enjoyed a lot of freedom, and I was paid OK. The job had many ups and downs. The opportunity arose to pursue a PhD when my advisor-to-be recruited me at a weeklong PL research retreat over the summer. I thought: "well, I will regret it if I don't at least try and see." Not to mention: how could I have a better opportunity, than for my advisor to recruit me?

I was part-time for a little while. (My advisor was very flexible.) Work got worse, mostly for unrelated reasons, and it was time to quit the job. I was spending 3 days a week on research for the PhD, and not enjoying it. However, I was very much enjoying my compilers research seminar course (read a paper and discuss every week). So, I quit the job. I figured: "maybe I am not enjoying research because I haven't been able to focus on it."

It turned out I really didn't enjoy the work I was doing. I wanted to do research, but this wasn't it.

My advisor and I discussed my dissatisfaction with the PhD at length. I felt like I came to the program with a lot of excitement for compilers research, but I was spending all my time on tedious engineering work (writing a `#pragma`-parsing extension in Clang). I wanted a promise that there was a plan to switch gears, to get creative, to do (what I believed) I had signed up to do: to write a totally new kind of compiler!

My advisor was flummoxed. "This is it," they said. I was confused, and a little angry.

It's a common story to start a PhD on the promise that you'll get to do a certain interesting piece of research, but spend 2 years (in some cases, more!) doing other work for your advisor (possibly due to funding). I knew a PhD candidate in this very position, who one day finally became so frustrated they said aloud: "I'm sick and f*cking tired of this! This is not what I signed up for." They had been there 2 years, and still weren't working on the research they began the PhD out of an interest in pursuing.

Finally, my advisor issued an ultimatum: decide whether to stay at least 2 years through quals, or quit.

I told my advisor I couldn't commit to 2 more years. Not when I was unhappy with the work, and when they were openly promising me more of the same.

My advisor was angry. They started to say some unflattering things: sometimes things like, "since you're an engineer, you should understand that the foundation work comes first." Other times, they were just openly rude, and non-constructive: "in my opinion, you are a bad presenter." They prided theirself on radical honesty, but failed to value empathy. Eventually, I just stopped listening to them.

I told my advisor I was going to explore my options and look for work. At first, they were encouraging: "I expect nothing less." In retrospect, I think they were confident at the time that I would stay. After it became clear I was planning to find a job instead of continuing in the program, however, my advisor began to make arguments to me like:

"Nothing in industry is interesting. Only people with PhDs get to do the interesting work."

"You will get paid more with the PhD."

"You will never become a self-directed learner if you quit."

All of these points are blatantly false. (The last one in particular was really weird to hear.) But, finally, I was hearing it said: I was hearing my advisor spread the fear. All along I picked up on the trepidation my peers in the research lab felt toward "industry work," which they all seemed to imagine as a form of cubicle hell in the bowels of Oracle's terrifying UFO office complex in California. My advisor finally gave a voice to that fear. They tried to spread that fear to me.

I am extremely glad I had already worked in industry. I knew my advisor was wrong. I think, however, that they believed their own arguments. They've never worked in industry, after all. And maybe they needed to believe it was worse, in order to justify the stress and overwork of academia.

For my part, I ended up with an excellent job in New York City working for better.com. I have no regrets. I still have a fascination with compilers, and I occasionally read papers for fun. I work on my own self-directed projects in my free time, which I enjoy far more than I enjoyed working for my advisor. I also get paid very well, and my work peers are some of the smartest and most talented people I've ever met - PhDs included. The best thing my advisor ever did for me was fire me. I got a raise (even over my first job); I got to move to New York City; I got to work with incredible new people (and lots of them); and I now know exactly what I'm missing out on, having left the program.

By the way: we're hiring at better.com. :)

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