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Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

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Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#241

Post by csomar »

thwarted wrote: post #125
PittleyDunkin wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it never really occurs to us to use them, just like it never occurs to you to not use them. This doesn't really make sense, either. How do you not consider the right tool for the job? Do you just use whatever you learned to code and never really bothered to consider that you might be more or less productive with different tools? LSPs don't always offer a productivity increase in all contexts—they seem to be mostly…

My great-grandmother never used a mixer when making cakes or bread, long after mixers were available, and she was able to pump out treats and full meals without batting an eye, the best anyone ever had. I don't have a problem with my "productivity", whatever that means. I'm not trying to write code faster, my own experience is that writing code faster leads to shitter code. I'm not hindered by my tools, and most of m…

I didn't setup the tool to write code "faster". I setup the tool mostly to reduce RSI because I wouldn't need to use the mouse as browsing docs with vim only uses the keyboard. I do agree that you can't write code "faster"; whatever that means but that was never my purpose.

You should give these tools a try. From my perspective it's like someone sitting on a small wooden chair and you are proposing an Aeron. Yes, they are both chairs and you'll be sitting and perform the same task but boy the ergonomic chair will save you from some real back-pain.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#242

Post by continuational »

userbinator wrote: post #224
brabel wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not only do I avoid using LSP features, but I’m also opposed to their use. While they can help with navigation, they may prevent developers from experiencing and addressing the underlying structural issues in their code. LSP by itself will not prevent anything. LSP (using the terminology from OP, but any IDE really) is just a tool like any other which allows you to do things faster. It doesn't matter how organized…

When you have to manually search for files and then Ctrl+F to find functions, lookup docs in a web browser (which I hear is how people who don't use IDEs still do that), or manually run a linter/compiler to see warnings in your code, you're just being really inefficient. It's inefficient the first time but you quickly build a working memory and a deeper mental model of the code, which becomes even more useful in the…

Good riddance?

Why spend your life doing something a computer could do for you?

The goal of programming is not to write code (however much I enjoy that part), it is to solve problems.

I don't think copilot et al is anywhere close yet though. They are occasionally useful when working with popular APIs you use very rarely, or when you need to write some very repetitive code. Other than that, I feel like it's mostly a monkey typing plausible but incorrect code on my screen everywhere I go.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#243

Post by pjc50 »

svilen_dobrev wrote: post #230
daltonpinto wrote: post #99

This question reminds me of the first time I met a blind programmer. I asked him how he managed to code, and he replied with something that stayed with me: a good programmer should organize software in such a way that every piece of code has a clear and logical place. The organization should be so intuitive that anyone could build a mental model of the structure and navigate it easily, even without seeing it. It felt…

some colleague some time ago argued that one can write code without much/any spaces, because, "you can see, it's colored differently".. sounding like, "i am breathing". All these IDE+- things may be nice-to-have but most soon become crutches, and then you cannot live without them, and only walk their walk, not yours. Just turning off syntax coloring freaks recent developers.. even quite good ones.. i observed it. The…

> pollute untyped-languages' codebases with so-called-"typing" noise

Yeah, this is going to be extremely controversial: your so-called untyped language actually has types in, and they're important, but only the program can see them at runtime because you've not written them down anywhere.

The real solution to "repeating myself writing down types" is Hindley-Milner inference, which dates back to 1958, and more languages should use it!

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#244

Post by javcasas »

javcasas wrote: post #237

Ah, yes, autocomplete: the propagator of typos. Write it wrong once, have it copied wrong everywhere. Go-to-definition: the band-aid for overengineering. Write 37 levels of indirection, don't pay the price. AI programming: now you don't even have to pretend you understand the code! Bonus point: sometimes it generates from StackOverflow, but from the question, not the answer. These are good tools, but it's easy to fig…

Related to workflows: vim, tmux, grep -r for finding stuff in somewhat sane codebases, watch to have unit tests running, minor scripts for everything else.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#245

Post by masternight »

So, Autocomplete, Lang Server and Copilot.

I don't use any of those, and I've never felt the need for them really. Is Make and Vim not an IDE?

None of those existed when I started to code at my first dayjob and I've never really seen the value in them.

I find it interesting you think that go-to-definition isn't possible without a language server. I was doing that long before lang servers existed.

When I want to look a function signature up, well there's two ways I do it.

1) vim + ctags and Ctrl-] will take you there (usually, sometimes it gets confused).

2) grep (or nowdays, ripgrep) the codebase for the name of the function (in another window).

As for remembering what is where. Good organization helps. After time I tend to develop a mental model of what is where and I'll just find myself popping over to the other terminal and opening a file in vim to find what I need.

You can take syntax highlighting from my cold dead hands, though.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#246

Post by duckmysick »

thwarted wrote: post #125
PittleyDunkin wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it never really occurs to us to use them, just like it never occurs to you to not use them. This doesn't really make sense, either. How do you not consider the right tool for the job? Do you just use whatever you learned to code and never really bothered to consider that you might be more or less productive with different tools? LSPs don't always offer a productivity increase in all contexts—they seem to be mostly…

My great-grandmother never used a mixer when making cakes or bread, long after mixers were available, and she was able to pump out treats and full meals without batting an eye, the best anyone ever had. I don't have a problem with my "productivity", whatever that means. I'm not trying to write code faster, my own experience is that writing code faster leads to shitter code. I'm not hindered by my tools, and most of m…

I also cook and bake and I am using a mixer. And other tools too, like a food processor, a thermometer, scales, a dishwasher. Could I make do without them? Sure, as I have in the past. I understand my tools and how to apply them; I chop small amounts of ingredients and I don't wash my knives in a dishwasher. But I recognize the value of the tools. With them, my results are consistent and higher quality.

Plus, I have more time and energy for writing code later. Or other activities.

I admire consummate professionals who can immerse themselves in the craft. I can't do it. I still put out great work - definitely not the best ever - and the tools lessen my mental and physical burden. I have more energy that I can spend elsewhere.

We replaced the punchcards and terminals and line editors with different tools because the trade-offs were worth it. Maybe we can keep adapt new tooling in a similar matter when it makes sense.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#247

Post by pjc50 »

samsquire wrote: post #155
daltonpinto wrote: post #99

This question reminds me of the first time I met a blind programmer. I asked him how he managed to code, and he replied with something that stayed with me: a good programmer should organize software in such a way that every piece of code has a clear and logical place. The organization should be so intuitive that anyone could build a mental model of the structure and navigate it easily, even without seeing it. It felt…

I greatly enjoyed this comment of yours daltonpinto. Thank you. I do not rejoice with code bases where every file has no logic or code in it but there are hundreds of methods and files with everything spread out. I have no idea how those projects fit together because the actual logic is spread out. For my personal side project hobby work it's all in one file.

> For my personal side project hobby work it's all in one file.

Ok, so this is work, but:

    find . -name '*.cs' -type f -print0 | wc --files0-from=-
    1035617 3438912 47446211 total
Not many editors are comfortable with a million line document that's 47MB. And that doesn't include generated code (which I very rarely need to look at, but is right there under F12 if I do)

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#248

Post by mithametacs »

continuational wrote: post #242
userbinator wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have to manually search for files and then Ctrl+F to find functions, lookup docs in a web browser (which I hear is how people who don't use IDEs still do that), or manually run a linter/compiler to see warnings in your code, you're just being really inefficient. It's inefficient the first time but you quickly build a working memory and a deeper mental model of the code, which becomes even more useful in the…

Good riddance? Why spend your life doing something a computer could do for you? The goal of programming is not to write code (however much I enjoy that part), it is to solve problems. I don't think copilot et al is anywhere close yet though. They are occasionally useful when working with popular APIs you use very rarely, or when you need to write some very repetitive code. Other than that, I feel like it's mostly a m…

I don't want to write any code. I want to think about the design of the program and have it pop out of my head fully formed.

The latter gives me dopamine. The former gives me carpal tunnel.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#249

Post by tasuki »

userbinator wrote: post #221

The sibling comment about a blind programmer is very worth reading, because it is relevant to what I've observed about other (non-blind) programmers who are highly skilled: they do not need tools to tell them what to do, because they have completely internalised the structure of the program and can think about it as a whole. Incidentally, one of the things I often do when solving a problem --- be it finding a bug or…

This works for small projects.

I've worked on projects where "hold the entire project in your head" might be somewhere between very hard and impossible. Work the right abstractions, it should be possible to hold the relevant parts in your brain. Still, when you're new to a large project, an ide goes a long way.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#250

Post by fc417fc802 »

csomar wrote: post #241
thwarted wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My great-grandmother never used a mixer when making cakes or bread, long after mixers were available, and she was able to pump out treats and full meals without batting an eye, the best anyone ever had. I don't have a problem with my "productivity", whatever that means. I'm not trying to write code faster, my own experience is that writing code faster leads to shitter code. I'm not hindered by my tools, and most of m…

I didn't setup the tool to write code "faster". I setup the tool mostly to reduce RSI because I wouldn't need to use the mouse as browsing docs with vim only uses the keyboard. I do agree that you can't write code "faster"; whatever that means but that was never my purpose. You should give these tools a try. From my perspective it's like someone sitting on a small wooden chair and you are proposing an Aeron. Yes, the…

> wouldn't need to use the mouse as browsing docs with vim only uses the keyboard

I recommend adding a Vim keybindings extension to your browser.

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