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Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

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Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#241

Post by rot13xor »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #226
ahmedalsudani wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking forward to the day a patent troll comments on a discussion

Largest "patent troll" in history was brainchild of and founded by former Microsoft CTO. The person who coined the term "patent troll" helped him start the company. He came from Intel. The saddest part of the idea of "trolling" as a "business" is that it has spread into other areas, outside IT. "Patent trolling" is easy to spot when the patents are software patents as so many software patent are low quality. However,…

If the patents are legitimate it seems like a business model similar to debt collectors or "cash now for annuity" companies. A small company might have a winnable case of damages but doesn't have the resources or risk appetite to take the case to trial. It's a rational decision to sell off the claim to another company for X% of the expected value and let them take risk of enforcing the claim.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#242

Post by zem »

rolph wrote: post #211
major505 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. Can you counter sue a company like that? Since they do affect productive companies, that must be some law against that...

perhaps patenting the entire process of, or a critical component of patent trolling, would be feasible

prior art: http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20140301

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#243

Post by gpm »

rot13xor wrote: post #241
1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Largest "patent troll" in history was brainchild of and founded by former Microsoft CTO. The person who coined the term "patent troll" helped him start the company. He came from Intel. The saddest part of the idea of "trolling" as a "business" is that it has spread into other areas, outside IT. "Patent trolling" is easy to spot when the patents are software patents as so many software patent are low quality. However,…

If the patents are legitimate it seems like a business model similar to debt collectors or "cash now for annuity" companies. A small company might have a winnable case of damages but doesn't have the resources or risk appetite to take the case to trial. It's a rational decision to sell off the claim to another company for X% of the expected value and let them take risk of enforcing the claim.

Taking a look around this thread should make it clear that even if patents are legitimate, many patent trolls are not. They are frequently going after entities that are not actually infringing, or threatening people with obviously invalid patents, because the legal system makes it cheaper to pay the troll than go to court, even if you will win.

(But you probably have a point that if patents are legitimate than an otherwise ethical patent troll would also be legitimate)

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#244

Post by hsbauauvhabzb »

esens wrote: post #50

As someone who has dealt with this I suggest you figure out a way to avoid the patent. Read through the claims, figure out what combination of features they have patented and then change your product to avoid those features in that combination. You likely can either do something more advanced or something less advanced -- if you have the choice do the more advanced solution as you are then likely pushing your product…

You are not a lawyer, do not give out legal advice. I’d almost hesitate to suggest you should stop giving out advice all together, given your ignorance…

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#245

Post by howmayiannoyyou »

bitwize wrote: post #133

There are basically two ways to respond. 1) roll over and show your belly, and pay up 2) get a patent attorney and fight. Depending on the size and resources of the patent troll, you may intimidate them out of pursuing the matter just by lawyering up. No one wants protracted litigation, not even vexatious litigants, for whom the fear of litigation is far more profitable than the actual court proceedings. It's money i…

Third option:

Negotiate a settlement before the lawyer you hire files their appearance. That conversation should be minimal with low expectations.

Fourth option:

Compared to the cost of most litigation its cheaper to hire a full time corporate counsel to handle the litigation (if you can afford it).

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#246

Post by dzabriskie »

To expose the entire patent troll ecosystem, HN should find a way to cloud source a database of patent lawsuits.

Maybe include data points like -

- the patent in question

- the troll behind the suit

- the defending IP litigator (so others can know where to turn when the troll goes after their next victim)

- the outcome of the suit - settled, won, lost, costs, penalties, etc

The more information that becomes available to combat these trolls, the better.

Perhaps a site like this could run completely off donations, by saving money in legal expenses. Or maybe monetize allowing IP litigators to list their services in a directory. Maybe allow users to review IP litigators and link them to successful/unsuccessful cases and outcomes?

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#247

Post by gpm »

oh_sigh wrote: post #230
coldpie wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is taking anything for free? Do you think people go read through the patent database to get product ideas? If I create a product and bring it to market without any knowledge of your patent, why should I pay you just because you invented it earlier and then sat on it?

I don't think any judge is going to care much if you say you didn't read their patent before infringing on their patent.

They will, intentional infringement is worse than accidental infringement, but both are illegal. (not a lawyer...)

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#248

Post by gaws »

Andrew_Russell wrote: post #44

I am an IP litigator, and I have dealt with patent trolls repeatedly. I have taken these kinds of cases pro bono in the past for small companies (including through the EFF attorney referral list, https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance ), and I know that others have as well. There are definitely low-cost and pro bono (free) options out there for very small businesses. The EFF attorney referral list is a good place…

I'm blown away by your willingness to take on these cases pro bono. There are too many greedy lawyers out there who put money over people.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#249

Post by hvis »

gpm wrote: post #243
rot13xor wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the patents are legitimate it seems like a business model similar to debt collectors or "cash now for annuity" companies. A small company might have a winnable case of damages but doesn't have the resources or risk appetite to take the case to trial. It's a rational decision to sell off the claim to another company for X% of the expected value and let them take risk of enforcing the claim.

Taking a look around this thread should make it clear that even if patents are legitimate, many patent trolls are not. They are frequently going after entities that are not actually infringing, or threatening people with obviously invalid patents, because the legal system makes it cheaper to pay the troll than go to court, even if you will win. (But you probably have a point that if patents are legitimate than an oth…

> But you probably have a point that if patents are legitimate than an otherwise ethical patent troll would also be legitimate

I'm not sure it's possible to be an "ethical" patent troll. It is a structure explicitly chosen to minimize any collateral in case their patents are thrown out in court, claims are invalidated, and they have to pay to for the counterpart's expenses (and which point the company is simply dissolved, with little to no damage to the owners).

If somebody is so sure their patents are valid, let them form a "real" company which utilizes said patents to bring in revenue, and let that company go to court with competitors and bear the risk of having to pay for frivolous lawsuits.

Not that I think that that software should ever be patentable, of course.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#250

Post by supernova87a »

JGM_io wrote: post #227
jblake wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just spoke with Andrew and he was incredibly helpful and is going to help me out. Whew. Thank you Andrew and HN!!

Some way the two of you can do a blog or soenthing outlining the main points when dealing with such a threat?

Agreed -- it would be a service to the community that helped connect them if they could share some approaches / advice for others in a future similar situation!
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