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Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

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Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#241

Post by andreilys »

LanceH wrote: post #209
HumblyTossed wrote: post #87

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but here is why the company I work for currently is able to keep me. 1. Interesting work [0]. My day to day is not a slog. I find it challenging and stimulating. 2. I get to the freedom to make decisions. My manager tells me, "I know you have this, so just do it." If I fail (we all do occasionally. Some things just don't work), they don't let the bus hit me. We figur…

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.

Isn’t 2 weeks the standard within the US? If you’d like longer vacations then Europe is your best bet

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#242

Post by jameshart »

junon wrote: post #239
jameshart wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do I 'defend' agile? I guess... for one thing, I have, multiple times in my career, been part of technology organizations that have positively transformed their relationship with business stakeholders by getting the business to buy the underlying truth: building software is a learning exercise; the requirements can and will change. And the frameworks you have to put in place to make that kind of relationship work…

This reads exactly like someone who's never been on the development-end of an agile team. You could have said you copied this from some promotional material for an Agile consultant and I'd believe it. Really your only argument is "those companies didn't do it right", but the problem is that if agile is so hard to do correctly then doesn't that mean there's a problem with it?

Weird, because it was written by someone who's been a working software developer for 20 years and who has so far successfully resisted getting shoved into a hands-off-keyboard management role...

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#243

Post by junon »

jameshart wrote: post #228
Frost1x wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I use this as a signal of avoidance: not interested in your varied way to try and manipulate SWE labor and squeeze another once of productivity out or pass off your debt in the form of my time at the cost of my sanity. I know many others that do the very same. Perhaps it's my loss, it's a risk I'm willing to take due to the number of bad apples associated with such practices.

I'm not sure what this kind of cynicism actually gets for you. If you approach any job ad with the assumption that whenever they try to put a positive spin on the working environment they offer, they really mean they'll manipulate your labor to squeeze out productivity at the cost of your sanity... ... why would you work for anyone ?

You're assuming that agile is a "positive spin on the working environment".

In 11 years of professional work, it's only ever been used as a weapon against the development team.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#244

Post by junon »

jameshart wrote: post #242
junon wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reads exactly like someone who's never been on the development-end of an agile team. You could have said you copied this from some promotional material for an Agile consultant and I'd believe it. Really your only argument is "those companies didn't do it right", but the problem is that if agile is so hard to do correctly then doesn't that mean there's a problem with it?

Weird, because it was written by someone who's been a working software developer for 20 years and who has so far successfully resisted getting shoved into a hands-off-keyboard management role...

Then you've been lucky. Good for you!

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#245

Post by compiler-guy »

viraptor wrote: post #150
Nursie wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Relatively few engineers actually want to do contract work. The better contractors I've worked with all do, here in the UK. The day rates are high. The taxes are the same or lower, health insurance is optional. There's some company insurances you need and you have to get an accountant, but all-in that should be covered by less than a week of work each year. Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summe…

> Gaps between contracts are desirable! Having a whole summer off to live on your accumulated war chest and chill out, it's amazing. If you can do that, that's amazing. Unfortunately many contractors fall into the "if I don't work I'm losing money" mentality and never stop. Then they start converting everything to how many days it cost them to earn and try to never spend money. I've seen it so many times and it's so…

This happens with everyone I know who is self employed. Lawyers, auto shop owners, repair shops. If you bill hourly, or by the job, it is very easy to calculate how much you lose by not working right now.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#246

Post by sokoloff »

andreilys wrote: post #241
LanceH wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.

Isn’t 2 weeks the standard within the US? If you’d like longer vacations then Europe is your best bet

Standard for many companies? Probably. For tech? I don't think so. We start at 10 days the company picks (the typical ones) plus 19 days that "you pick"* and add 1 day per year of tenure for the first 5 years and that feels "competitive but not exceptional" for tech to me.

We also offer an additional 4 weeks (contiguous) once every 5 years, which is not standard for tech and is an enjoyable perq.

* - plus sick time which you aren’t paid out if you’re fortunate enough to not need to use, plus parental leave

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#247

Post by myfavoritedog »

jrockway wrote: post #232
myfavoritedog wrote: post #84

I'm going to be a curmudgeonly contrarian in this thread. You can highlight the text of my comment to make it easier to read after the incoming downvotes. :) I'm not desperately searching for work-life balance, using the latest fad of a technical stack, remoting, unlimited vacation, having the best free snacks in the break room, etc. Sure, at a superficial level, all that stuff sounds great. I'll make use of the in-o…

> They cultivated a workforce that was more concerned with airing political grievances than they were with the success of the company. The second the politics were shut down, a third of their employees walked out. That is a very inaccurate retelling of the story: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/3/22418208/basecamp-all-hand...

Uh, yeah, I've read the account of the Basecamp all-hands meeting a couple of times. I couldn't believe how childish the whole dispute was after the first reading, so I read it again.

Rather than spending that morning strategizing about the next version of their software, what bugs needed fixing, how to increase sales, what features were working or not -- they argued over politics.

I mean, no one was accused of doing something illegal or even wrong. There was no sexual harassment. There were no racists or racist work practices uncovered.

Just non-work political grievances. One guy had different political opinions than some other people. I think he said something positive about Breitbart, gods forbid. Some of the participants claimed to have been literally crying and yelling at their computer screens. Words were interpreted or twisted to frame an argument over if there was no white supremacy anywhere, or whether there was no white supremacy in that work environment. "Privilege" accusations were leveled.

The whole thing was ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#248

Post by detaro »

andreilys wrote: post #241
LanceH wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.

Isn’t 2 weeks the standard within the US? If you’d like longer vacations then Europe is your best bet

In a discussion of "it's so hard to attract employees", you probably should consider doing things that are better than "standard".

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#249

Post by junon »

jameshart wrote: post #154
water8 wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could also mean that they fall under the other extreme of perpetually outdated over-documentation. IMO the only thing worse than no docs are wrong docs.

Would you say that, perhaps, you value working software over comprehensive documentation?

I can always read source code. Any programmer worth a damn can. Docs are out of sync with the code the second the code changes in any non-trivial way.

However, code always documents how it works (sometimes poorly, of course).

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#250

Post by tommypalm »

andreilys wrote: post #241
LanceH wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.

Isn’t 2 weeks the standard within the US? If you’d like longer vacations then Europe is your best bet

20 days is standard in the UK but most companies will give you 25. Some also give you the option to buy more.
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