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Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

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Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big money question is: How have you managed to stay passionate about your job? I just posted a comment in another thread about burnout. It's very common in our industry. I believe it's due to the Coolidge Effect. Aka, the brains inherent search for novelty. It's a struggle to not look at almost all programming tasks as just some variation of the same problem, if you've been doing this long enough. How do you keep…

"I believe it's due to the Coolidge Effect. Aka, the brains inherent search for novelty." But I can't think of a better industry than software development to satisfy the search for novelty. There's always something new and interesting to learn.

I can say same about electronics, physics, cooking or gardening.

(BTW I am programmer, a little bored out now)

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is irrelevant to most jobs and no I am neither young nor inexperienced. Just as one example, the basic level of algorithms, where one could realize when they're creating a O(n^2) routine, is relevant to just about every shop I interacted with working for a language/VM vendor. I found it disturbing, the number of times I could play the hero just by knowing that much. I've worked in shops using C, where I kept bumpi…

How much is really relevant to the average developer out there writing a bespoked internal app that no one will ever see outside of a company or yet another software as a service CRUD app? I think I’ve had to implement one complicated algorithm that was low level and not a complex business requirement in years and that was the “shunting yard” algorithm to convert a string algebraic expression to a number as part of t…

How much is really relevant to the average developer out there writing a bespoked internal app that no one will ever see outside of a company or yet another software as a service CRUD app?

Only a smattering. I could cover just about all of it in 2 nights of instruction. However, that doesn't mean the students would have mastered and internalized the concepts to the point where they'd make the right realizations when they need to.

I think I’ve had to implement one complicated algorithm that was low level and not a complex business requirement in years and that was the “shunting yard” algorithm to convert a string algebraic expression to a number as part of the parser for the compiler I was maintaining.

Right. Most of the time, one implements simple algorithms, using hashmaps and "vectors" as building blocks. But first principles knowledge can also make one better at that.

Most developers could go there entire successful career without ever knowing how a compiler works.

(Their.) Right. Most people can manage. Just like most mechanics can manage to muddle through learning as they go. But why not have mechanics learn basic knowledge about electricity? They do, because that kind of 1st principles knowledge can save people from pain. The same applies to CS/programming. Also, the knowledge itself is pretty neat. A lot of people get pleasure from learning it and being able to understand their world in a deeper and more nuanced way.

People going to top-tier 4 year universities, getting a 3.75 GPA, but coming out with no more than a glue-crud-apps-to-cookbooked-machine-learning/buzzword-of-the-day-library level of knowledge just strikes me as a colossal waste and colossal rip-off. It's also people becoming the victims of low expectations. I know that kid who tried to tell me that a pointer doesn't take up space could well have learned that stuff, if his program had just had slightly higher expectations. I'm reminded of schools who track certain kids into learning nothing more than what's necessary to balance a checkbook. That's killing young minds with the bigotry of low expectations. We're probably already at the point where some say asking kids to learn enough math to balance a checkbook is asking too much. Something about that strikes me as selling people short.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much is really relevant to the average developer out there writing a bespoked internal app that no one will ever see outside of a company or yet another software as a service CRUD app? I think I’ve had to implement one complicated algorithm that was low level and not a complex business requirement in years and that was the “shunting yard” algorithm to convert a string algebraic expression to a number as part of t…

How much is really relevant to the average developer out there writing a bespoked internal app that no one will ever see outside of a company or yet another software as a service CRUD app? Only a smattering. I could cover just about all of it in 2 nights of instruction. However, that doesn't mean the students would have mastered and internalized the concepts to the point where they'd make the right realizations when…

In my market, a major city in the US with a reasonable cost of living (ie a five bedroom/3000 square foot house in a good neighborhood in the burbs can be bought for $350K), the average framework developer who can push out a CRUD REST API in Node and can throw together a website with Bootstrap and React can make about $120K in a few years out of college and live a nice comfortable life and is well above the median income - I don’t think that’s doing too badly and certainly not “low expectations” based on salary.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#244
post #60

Everyone here is talking about their skillset, and I'm going to take another direction: appearance and interpersonal skills. There is ageism, yes, but I think a deeper problem is reaction to peoples appearance. If you are late twenties concerned about age, then hide it, starting now. * Always wear sunscreen when you are outside, regardless of race. It prevents skin aging, and you'll still tan and get Vitamin D regard…

This. I would also add hygiene to that list. Take extra care about your teeth, control the smell (hint: diet!), cut hair regulary, cut & clean nails, trim nosehair, earhair, cure acnes, clear blackheads. Don't be afraid of beautician.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#245
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So in short the cure for ageism is to try and look younger than you are? No one saw that one coming.

Great advice, if we could all look younger when we want, we would! A lot of it depends on genetics. We'd all exercise more if our knees and backs weren't grinding down from years of use. Any over 50 female developers care to respond to this "look younger" advice?

Not developers, but I work with a lot of professional women and basically every single one who is old enough to have gray hair, colors her hair to hide the gray.

I've posted about this before but Ginni Rometty, who is 61 years old, has perfect blond hair with no gray; she obviously has it colored. She is the CEO of IBM and feels the need to do this... that gives you a sense of the amount of pressure on professional women to look young.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#246
post #71
post #60

Everyone here is talking about their skillset, and I'm going to take another direction: appearance and interpersonal skills. There is ageism, yes, but I think a deeper problem is reaction to peoples appearance. If you are late twenties concerned about age, then hide it, starting now. * Always wear sunscreen when you are outside, regardless of race. It prevents skin aging, and you'll still tan and get Vitamin D regard…

So in short the cure for ageism is to try and look younger than you are? No one saw that one coming.

Good luck on curing ageism; but "how to look younger" might be useful practical advice for people who need to get a job in the face of ageism.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, as someone who generally winds up rewriting the mess that you wrote for everyone in the room, I really wish you'd pay more attention to the outcome in the end.

I think the grand parent meant business outcome, where he kept quality of work high as far as management decissions let him.

Thanks, that's exactly what I meant.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#248
I work at a high (senior) level as a (Javascript) developer and I'm 48. I'm not aware of being discriminated against - I never have trouble finding work (and I'm a contractor so I change jobs frequently). Perhaps that is part of it: it doesn't cross my mind that I might be discriminated against; it doesn't cross my mind to treat anyone younger than me different from anyone else. So my attitude to people is open: I am not defensive or resentful. I'm in the UK which has, as far as I can tell, less of an ageism problem than the US.

If I'm honest I'm probably a little bit slower mentally with very challenging, complex problems than I was 15 years ago. But, I work with some of the highest paid people in the industry and I have never once thought to myself that I was out of my depth or slow technically compared to my colleagues - regardless of their age.

And there are real, big advantages to age / experience:

- Technically I have great breadth of experience: I'm (mainly) a front end developer but I've worked commercially in Node, C++, Java and PHP; I'm confident with server + database administration and dev-ops, complex application architecture and scaling. I'm the one that the senior managers turn to when they have problems / doubts / questions because I solve problems / answer questions for them - regardless of the tech stack.

- I'm more mature emotionally and have far better interpersonal skills and experience, meaning I am far more effective and pleasant to be with in a team. This is a huge (way more important than technical skills) thing - particularly in today's work climate where it is not acceptable to be 'toxic'. I am experienced about getting my ideas across and giving feedback without being an asshole; I am unfazed if people are stressing out / blaming / ignoring / not listening to me. I am not egotistical, insecure or emotional and I have enough experience with office politics to know what is happening and what people are about.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#249
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see something similar in my industry. I work on embedded systems for industrial automation and in my mid 30's I still tend to be one of the younger ones in any group of coworkers/clients. In my case don't think this is issue of "insulation" but rather a difference between technical fields. Industrial automation is a long-game. Development projects can last a year or more, and client support can stretch into the 10s…

To echo the other commenter. How easy is it to transition to embedded if all the experience you have so far is web related? Is this possible?

Unfortunately I couldn't really offer any useful advice here as it wasn't really a major transition for me. My academic background was Computer and Systems Engineering which includes embedded systems programming.

Re: Ask HN: Developers aged 50, how have you gotten around age discrimination?

#250
post #193
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see something similar in my industry. I work on embedded systems for industrial automation and in my mid 30's I still tend to be one of the younger ones in any group of coworkers/clients. In my case don't think this is issue of "insulation" but rather a difference between technical fields. Industrial automation is a long-game. Development projects can last a year or more, and client support can stretch into the 10s…

How did you get into embedded? Web work doesn't really interest me and I've been studying kernel programming for a few months.

My academic background was Computer and Systems Engineering, with a focus on computer science and machine vision. I started with project/application-level work at a company that specializes in industrial machine vision then moved into embedded Linux development on the devices I had been doing project-level work with.
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