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Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

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Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#231

Post by fncypants »

esens wrote: post #50

As someone who has dealt with this I suggest you figure out a way to avoid the patent. Read through the claims, figure out what combination of features they have patented and then change your product to avoid those features in that combination. You likely can either do something more advanced or something less advanced -- if you have the choice do the more advanced solution as you are then likely pushing your product…

Absolutely do not take any of this advice of the parent. I am an IP litigator. I kill patents as my day job.

The parent’s advice assumes the players are reasonable people acting in good faith. In the case of patent trolls, they are often not acting in good faith. Most of the allegations are not good faith interpretations of the patent. There is no “perception of infringement” to begin with. They just want a quick payout and found a cost-efficient way to state a claim against a widely used technology so that they can threaten and file lawsuits in volume. Instead, find a good patent lawyer or a pro bono resource (like EFF or a colleague with experience) that can give you resources or advice to quickly dispose of it cheaply (or even for free), if you cannot afford fight it. Sometimes, it can even be cheaper to hire an excellent patent lawyer that can win the case early than it would be to pay off the patent troll. I have written many a response to a patent licensing demand letter, knowing exactly what to say for much less than settling, where they disappear and never sue. And if they have sued, sometimes they disappear as soon as lawyers they do not want to be up against show up in the case.

In the instance of a good faith claim by a patent owner (even if wrong), there will be enough money at stake that it would be worth the cost to consult a good patent lawyer before doing a single thing.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#232

Post by pbhjpbhj »

coldpie wrote: post #194
oh_sigh wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without knowing the content of the patents(merely that they are valid) - would you be able to differentiate between a patent troll and someone with a great patent that wants their hard work licensed instead of taken for free?

Who is taking anything for free? Do you think people go read through the patent database to get product ideas? If I create a product and bring it to market without any knowledge of your patent, why should I pay you just because you invented it earlier and then sat on it?

It's not _just_ because you invented it earlier, you also have to disclose it in a way that makes it workable. The disclosure is supposed to drive innovation and use of innovations; that's the patent deal, the monopoly is "paid" for with disclosure.

Aside, in the UK there's compulsory licensing (UKPA Section 48x to prevent people from inventing stuff and refusing to license it (at reasonable terms), too.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#233

Post by ThrustVectoring »

pnw wrote: post #167
relaunched wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more expensive than getting a patent, which you can do yourself. Courts have procedures, and it many juris dictions, they require you to be represented by an attorney. While I'm not an attorney, I've been the the process enough to know a few of the steps: 1) demand letter(s) and responses 2) negotiations, w/o a mediator 3) drafting and filing of the complaint 4) motions w/ responses 5) negotiations w/ a mediator…

In my most recent case, we settled the patent lawsuit for approximately 10% of the estimated cost to litigate, which was well into six figures. If we had chosen to litigate, it would have taken years, been very stressful and possibly created issues with future company financings etc. And even if we had won - the NPE has zero assets to attach so you always bear the legal cost.

> the NPE has zero assets to attach so you always bear the legal cost.

I've vaguely heard of this so it might not be directly relevant, but I've heard of "performance bonds" or the like being mandated for litigants. Basically the idea is that the litigant has to put up a sum of money to continue the lawsuit so that they don't get the free optionality of collect-if-win / have-no-assets-if-lose scenario.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#234

Post by cutemonster »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #132
foobarbazetc wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lawyers, like any other profession, are 95% incompetent. Finding the 5% that are competent is harder than it looks. And the hourly rate and/or physical location of said lawyer bares no correlation to competence level. And once you find that person they usually get scooped up and become GC for some VC funded startup or whatever because word travels.

Are you saying that carpenters, electricians, pumblers, builders, cobblers, taxi drivers, nurses, and public school teachers are 95% incompetant? If so, please kindly provide anecdata. This is a positively ridiculous acusation.

It's worse with lawyers, in that mistakes they make can go unnoticed for years or forever, so bad lawyers can still bring in lots of money to the company that provides them to you. Or so I think.

And the same with doctors, unfortunately, when they don't meet the person they treated again, when there's no follow up if it worked or not.

Plumbers, though, are different, in that then there's more feedback: does the water pipe still leak, or not? So they need to do something that actually works.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#235

Post by pbhjpbhj »

mywittyname wrote: post #208
shmerl wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you compare patents to weapons, the above is like privateering. For big companies there is also MAD analogy.

So I think what I'm talking about his more of a decoy than a privateer. I think of privateering as plausible deniability in attacking someone. Whereas, what I'm suggesting is more structuring a business such that they can't be sued for patent infringement since they don't own the technology that is allegedly infringing. So if your company receives a cease-and-desist letter, your lawyers can respond with a contract fr…

Yeah, that's not how that works, sorry.

You don't have to "own" tech in order to infringe a patent. Making a product that includes the technology protected by the patent, or selling it without there being a license (eg you buy it offshore where they're not covered by a particular patent, but you sell it where there is a patent covering that tech).

None of that matters in USA, as the threat of a lawsuit is threat of massive costs; ostensibly it doesn't matter that the court would award costs of a few $thousand against you if the lawyers to get you through the case cost $100,000s.

This is my personal opinion and not legal advice.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#236

Post by pbhjpbhj »

PaulHoule wrote: post #157
MAMAMassakali wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're super cool!! Also wanted to ask, how can a software guy get into IP law?

Get a law degree.

Or work at a patent office (I only know of the USPTO that does plain software patents, there a thing everywhere but it's complicated) ...

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#237

Post by Trias11 »

shmerl wrote: post #112
major505 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. Can you counter sue a company like that? Since they do affect productive companies, that must be some law against that...

You'd think it should be a law against racketeering (something like RICO). Some tried to use that against patent trolls, but it didn't work.

Giving away the idea to drug lord might work.

When troll will try to annoy the new owner - the troll will be dealt with in the way he deserves.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#238

Post by iajrz »

linsomniac wrote: post #210
major505 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious. Can you counter sue a company like that? Since they do affect productive companies, that must be some law against that...

Can you counter sue? Absolutely! But, as I tell my kids: Just because you're right doesn't mean you won't go bankrupt proving it in a court of law.

the court can remain unconvinced longer than you can stay solvent

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#239

Post by cutemonster »

foobarbazetc wrote: post #149
jacobkg wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience physicians are not 95% incompetent. Is there something inherently different about law from medicine? Or is more like how 95% of physicians couldn’t help you with a specific problem because it’s outside their specialty?

As someone who went through a tonne of so-called medical experts for a chronic condition I can say that, based on my experience, most people involved in medicine are incompetent. lol. You just have to bounce around until you hit someone who actually knows what they’re talking about.

@foobarbazetc I and some others I know, share your experiences. This is in north western Europe btw.

Re: Ask HN: I was hit with a patent troll lawsuit, how do I deal with it?

#240

Post by socks »

MAMAMassakali wrote: post #156
Andrew_Russell wrote: post #44

I am an IP litigator, and I have dealt with patent trolls repeatedly. I have taken these kinds of cases pro bono in the past for small companies (including through the EFF attorney referral list, https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance ), and I know that others have as well. There are definitely low-cost and pro bono (free) options out there for very small businesses. The EFF attorney referral list is a good place…

You're super cool!! Also wanted to ask, how can a software guy get into IP law?

As a software guy married to a lawyer, be careful what you wish for. The legal industry seems hell bent on inefficiency and fuzzy regulations.
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