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Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

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Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#231

Post by sjg007 »

o-__-o wrote: post #47
untog wrote: post #18

I think there's a process everyone has to go through in life of working out what truly makes them happy. When you're in your early 20s everyone has similar goals - you're going to be a goddamn giant success, no matter what your field is. As the years go on you realise that's not going to happen and you have to re-evaluate. It's not always easy. For me personally, I know I do good work. I know my coworkers can rely on…

FWIW no one aspires to be Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman, we all wanna Be Like Mike. But Pippen had the most rebounds and Rodman the most assists during that time. That’s what made the team win, you want to win as a team and there is no I in team. Then you retire from engineering, never making the next Facebook or revolutionary Operating System, instead going onto lead the next generation stars to the promised land…

Steve Kerr is the best 3 point shooter by percentage in NBA history. He was definitely a super star even though not recognized for it. Certain positions and teams really highlight a player I think. He also has transitioned into becoming one of the best NBA coaches.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#232

Post by AndrewKemendo »

richk449 wrote: post #176
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life? I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. The stock answer is contentment and "happiness." The most content person I've ever met was a flower cart man in Belmopan, Belize. Probably made $100 a week at most. He knew all he wanted…

> My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life? > I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. ... > This pervasive idea that "it's just a fucking job" is ultimately a milquetoast cop-out. Spend your hours doing something that has impact to you. Why can't "raising a family" be…

I mean it's so vague that it doesn't make sense. What is a measurable outcome from "raise a family?" Does that just mean producing offspring or are you requiring a certain outcome for the children and the unit as a whole, in order to feel content?

These are independent autonomous humans who have their own goals - so what happens when they deviate from the things you wanted them to do?

I have three kids and I can tell you right now, there is nothing straightforward that you can plan out with respect to outcomes. It's gonna be a crapshoot, and the best you can do is just do your best and hang on.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#233

Post by AndrewKemendo »

blub wrote: post #207
AndrewKemendo wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My question to people with this attitude is, what is the point of your life? I've lost a lot of friends and recognize that life is way too short to not be putting as much time as possible toward something you find totally compelling. The stock answer is contentment and "happiness." The most content person I've ever met was a flower cart man in Belmopan, Belize. Probably made $100 a week at most. He knew all he wanted…

Life doesn't have a point though, today maybe not even reproduction. We search for meaning ourselves and find it in different things.

Hence why I said you have to do what makes meaning for you.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#234

Post by ludston »

JohnBooty wrote: post #228
krageon wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point they were driving at was not that nobody can change their goals. It is just inconceivable to them that that is not failure. To set a different goal, you must first fail at the last one (if you did not achieve it). That is of course a way to look at your life that is perfectly okay, but it certainly wouldn't be my preference.

What an unfortunate way for them to view life. It's a bit heartbreaking to think about people viewing life in those terms. If I walk into the store intending to buy a shirt and decide I'd rather buy some pants instead, it would be very odd to consider that "a failure" to buy a shirt. And even odder for somebody to accuse me of "cognitive dissonance" to be happy with my pants instead of admitting "defeat."

Failure is such a normal thing that I cannot see how it would be heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think that some see all failure as a dark thing that must be avoided. Holding failure in low esteem is a path of fear and egomania.

It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!".

There is a reason "fail fast" is a mantra: it's through looking at our errors we have chances to do better.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#235

Post by JohnBooty »

ludston wrote: post #234
JohnBooty wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What an unfortunate way for them to view life. It's a bit heartbreaking to think about people viewing life in those terms. If I walk into the store intending to buy a shirt and decide I'd rather buy some pants instead, it would be very odd to consider that "a failure" to buy a shirt. And even odder for somebody to accuse me of "cognitive dissonance" to be happy with my pants instead of admitting "defeat."

Failure is such a normal thing that I cannot see how it would be heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to think that some see all failure as a dark thing that must be avoided. Holding failure in low esteem is a path of fear and egomania. It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!". There is a reas…

    There is a reason "fail fast" is a mantra: it's through looking 
    at our errors we have chances to do better.
I'd agree, though that's not what this discussion was originally about.

    It sure is possible to rebrand every failure we make as
    success in some thing else. "I failed to win the tennis
    match, but I succeeded in hitting the ball into the net!".
I agree, though nobody (at least not in this discussion) is endorsing that sort of cognitive gymnastics. There are no reasonable upsides to hitting the ball into the net, and it is not merely a "different" way of succeeding at the game others call tennis.

Let's go back to the original parent poster, untog's, claim.

    When I'm at work, I do the best I can do. Then I get 
    out of the door at a good time, go home to my family 
    and have a blast with them. I'm happy, though my 21 
    year old self might recoil in horror to see it.
To which AndrewKemendo replied,

    What I've seen happen is that people find 
    cognitive-dissonance coping strategies like you describe
Working reasonable hours and enjoying one's family is certainly not the life equivalent of hitting the tennis ball into the net, and it's awfully bleak to think that somebody's engaging in cognitive dissonance because their goals changed and they found happiness in a different way than they originally intended to.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#236

Post by pickle-wizard »

klenwell wrote: post #101

I'm reminded of an apocryphal story I read somewhere about an exchange between Kurt Vonnegut and Joseph Heller that was supposed to have taken place at a fancy party hosted by a successful hedge fund manager. Google reveals various versions and sources of the exchange. Here's mine: Vonnegut: Can you believe this guy? He makes more money in a single day than we'll make in our entire lives. And you wrote Catch-22! Hell…

It is nice to get to that place where you have enough.

I'm at the spot in my career, where I don't want any advancement or promotions. I'm happy doing what I'm doing. I've got a nice nest egg saved up, so money isn't that big of a motivator.. Really at this point my career is on cruise control, just biding time until I can retire. I'm still learning new technologies, but it is because I want to, not because I have to. Really takes the stress off.

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#237

Post by balfirevic »

c22 wrote: post #108
CalRobert wrote: post #81

At the end of the day, it's just a fucking job. If you need the money I understand the envy, and I've been there. But ultimately most of us are working really hard to make other people rich. Being really good at that game (and it's a pretty bitter game) isn't something to be envious of. I have never seen a high paying job in tech that wasn't ALSO higher stress and generally more hours. I'm sure exceptions exist, but…

This is a solid observation. I made a personal decision sometime in my late 20s to never do anything for money that I wouldn't also be willing to do for free. As a result of this decision I make a lot less money than many of my peers, but I'm always working on projects I'm excited about and I have more free time than most of the people I know. If anything, like you, I feel sorry for the people I see working all the t…

> I made a personal decision sometime in my late 20s to never do anything for money that I wouldn't also be willing to do for free

Unfortunately, for me and for a lot of people, I don't think there is an intersection of things I would be willing to do for free and that can make decent money (or livable money, for that matter).

> You can buy a lot of stuff with money, but you can't take it with you when you die.

Well, you can't take anything with you when you die :)

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#238

Post by balfirevic »

c22 wrote: post #177
andreilys wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money buys freedom from wage slavery.

At a certain point, sure, but statistically you're unlikely to get there through wage slavery. Anyway, there are other ways to gain that freedom.

> Anyway, there are other ways to gain that freedom.

What ways do you have in mind?

Re: Ask HN: How do you deal with professional envy?

#239

Post by philpem »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #159
CalRobert wrote: post #81

At the end of the day, it's just a fucking job. If you need the money I understand the envy, and I've been there. But ultimately most of us are working really hard to make other people rich. Being really good at that game (and it's a pretty bitter game) isn't something to be envious of. I have never seen a high paying job in tech that wasn't ALSO higher stress and generally more hours. I'm sure exceptions exist, but…

To the wayback machine. The year, sometime in the mid 1980's. Strangely while Facebook, Amazon, Netflix Google haven't been invented, Apple is here. Also strangely me too, but with long dark brown hair instead grey. Like today Apple and a bunch of other high status companies are highly sought after employers of note. And just like today overwork and burnout their highly skilled workers and then toss them out like yes…

Amen to that.

Took a job on the basis of "it'll look great on your CV". Most stressful job I've ever endured.

Went back to working for less-well-known, smaller places... night and day difference.

And I'm nowhere near the Bay area ;)

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