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Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

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Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#231

Post by why_only_15 »

atemerev wrote: post #173
pandler wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a conversation the other day with some work colleagues where we were talking about a friends dad who just retired from working as an engineer at AT&T for something like 35 years. We made some jokes about how that would be unthinkable these days and the conversation moved on. Loyalty goes both ways. If you want someone to stick around, incentivize them to.

This only works in a monopoly or oligopoly, where you can’t easily switch careers. If you were out of AT&T, your experience there couldn’t translate easily to other companies. This works even today: there are few ex-Googlers, because experience inside Google is most valuable to Google; there are few other gigantic search-first companies to move on to (OK, you can go to Facebook or Amazon or Microsoft and that’s about…

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that there are few ex-Googlers. I am only one person, but it seems like there are a very significant number of ex-Googlers, likely more than current Googlers.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#232

Post by kraig911 »

I'm seeing a lot of comments from a HR perspective or that once they get the training they leave. To me it's much deeper than that. This industry of software development only recently has exploded because it's much more mainstream and the demand is growing.

I feel if we compare it though to other trades the issue is simply the industry as a whole has top-ended and completely changed itself the last 7 years each time. I've seen Senior Devs take a junior role at their next company simply because the rate of change is so fast.

This is not a trade like plumbing or even electrical work where once a way of doing something is set in stone and you'll do things a certain way the rest of your career.

If you told me 10 years ago I'd be writing javascript all day everyday...

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#233

Post by mixmastamyk »

chrisco255 wrote: post #117
eximius wrote: post #54

EDIT: to people emailing me (thanks!), I am currently on PTO overseas so I will respond, but maybe not super timely. Also, we're looking for our first QA and our first DevOps role if non-SEs are reading... If you're willing to work in Texas, send me an email (check my profile). We absolutely do not mind if you have gaps. semi-OT: To all people in this thread who say there is no shortage of developers: if you know any…

I don't understand why people would believe there wasn't a shortage, when unemployment is so low right now. There was a shortage of tech talent when unemployment was 10%. Now it's like 3-4% (and for engineers probably half that).

I have twenty years of impressive experience, work is highly complimented, took me a year last time to find a job, was one month away from homelessness. “Shortage” self inflicted.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#234

Post by blauditore »

ivansavz wrote: post #118
oh-kumudo wrote: post #103

I think the reason is simple: once the junior dev is trained, they will leave. To be clear, I am not saying that they are obliged to stay in the company that trained them or being ungrateful in any sense, I am simply implying this is a common outcome from such training. In software industry, the first job switch in 2 years seems pretty common and reasonable, and the dev by that time would be able to strike a better j…

A friend of mine runs a web dev shop and I have seen him train at least six people from zero-to-pro (very smart, fast learners with a math background) and what you described is exactly what happens. Once they become medium/advanced-level proficient they often quit and move on to other, bigger companies. If there was some formal, or informal understanding that candidates "trained on the job" would stay for a few years…

Frankly, I did the same. For me the reasons were:

- Personal growth: Devs in that company were nice, but not stellar (I was the most "senior" one after a couple years), so I couldn't learn much from my peers.

- Nature of the business: I moved from customer service to product development, which is a personal preference.

- Money: The new place paid about 40% more.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#235

Post by jldugger »

The reasons are twofold:

1. Managerial sense of urgency. Hiring a junior means training them up, for harder and longer than a more senior hire. And probably tie up your remaining senior staffers for longer training them.

2. A desire to fix the problem permanently. A senior hire will be with the company a long while. A junior hire you train up is going to leave when they're more senior than they role they filled. Especially if your corporate promotion and salary policies are rigid, you may have difficulty retaining junior employees once trained to the level of a senior.

Until managers believe that hiring and training juniors is a long-term strategy that can be planned and budgeted for, the junior glut - senior shortage dynamic will persist.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#238

Post by marcell »

I don’t mean this the wrong way, but maybe the issue is something with you?

If you’re having trouble getting interviews, it’s possible your resume is not great, or you are applying to jobs that have a bad fit.

If you’re getting rejected after interviews, it’s possible you need to practice programming interview questions.

It’s also possible you haven’t achieved a high level of skill yet. If this is the case, spend time building your skill set and competence.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#239

Post by bayesian_horse »

pascalxus wrote: post #136

First of all the shortage of devs is mostly a myth. Companies that know how to hire don't have problems hiring. the problem is most software companies don't know how to hire and thus have a lot of problems. Or they're located in some impossible location like palo alto or San francisco and try to low ball everyone with salaries under 200K in a location where housing costs 3million$ plus. About hiring junior devs. You…

The only measure for "shortage of devs", or rather lack thereof would be a pool of unemployed or underemployed developers who don't work at all or who work in a different field because they don't find unattractive jobs.

If that pool is small, as I believe it is, there is no room for the idea that there are enough engineers. "Knowing how to hire", attractive benefits, locations etc are only ways to outcompete other employers, not a sustainable industry-wide mitigation of developer shortages.

Re: Ask HN: Why not more hiring of junior devs, then on-the-job-training?

#240

Post by sverhagen »

atmosx wrote: post #195
pascalxus wrote: post #136

First of all the shortage of devs is mostly a myth. Companies that know how to hire don't have problems hiring. the problem is most software companies don't know how to hire and thus have a lot of problems. Or they're located in some impossible location like palo alto or San francisco and try to low ball everyone with salaries under 200K in a location where housing costs 3million$ plus. About hiring junior devs. You…

Is there any sort of training on how to go about hiring people? Other than experience of course.

I don't know about formal training, I can only imagine that something exists. But what also works is to get the company's recruiter more involved. Short of formal training, they can be a coach for those involved in the hiring process.
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