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Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

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Re: Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

#221

Loads of comments already, but here goes. My brother used to work for Big-DoD. He quit, for reasons you explain here. But, he did tell me about a time his perspective was changed. He decided to stay late in the cube farm. His original idea was to go around to all the cubes and count to number of Dilbert Cartoons stapled to the oatmeal gray walls. he thought this would be evidence that everyone was cynical and full of…

None of those takeaways seem to be it to me. I think it was just that the people saw the job as a means to an end and didn't particularly care about the management pivoting or bullshitting as long as they got paid and could support themselves and their families.

> None of those takeaways seem to be it to me. I think it was just that the people saw the job as a means to an end and didn't particularly care about the management pivoting or bullshitting as long as they got paid and could support themselves and their families.

When you hang out in places like HN it seems like everyone has this insane drive to succeed and be the best and conquer the world. The truth is that lots of (most?) people are happy getting their paycheck and going home every day. They don't want more responsibility, they don't want to climb the corporate ladder, they don't want to disrupt any industries, they just want to watch their kid play softball.

Sure, they love to say "oh I could run this company better!" but they wouldn't actually want to do it. If you read Yishan's AMA about a day in the life of a CEO it's very similar - most people DON'T want that job and everything that it entails (being on call 24/7 and being 100% responsible for every aspect of the business).

Re: Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those takeaways seem to be it to me. I think it was just that the people saw the job as a means to an end and didn't particularly care about the management pivoting or bullshitting as long as they got paid and could support themselves and their families.

> None of those takeaways seem to be it to me. I think it was just that the people saw the job as a means to an end and didn't particularly care about the management pivoting or bullshitting as long as they got paid and could support themselves and their families. When you hang out in places like HN it seems like everyone has this insane drive to succeed and be the best and conquer the world. The truth is that lots o…

>When you hang out in places like HN it seems like everyone has this insane drive to succeed and be the best and conquer the world. The truth is that lots of (most?) people are happy getting their paycheck and going home every day. They don't want more responsibility, they don't want to climb the corporate ladder, they don't want to disrupt any industries, they just want to watch their kid play softball.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Being around these sites can make it feel like the first category's what I'm "supposed" to be doing but I feel more like the second category occasionally. Startups sound like more stress than they're worth sometimes. I'm not sure what route I'll try to go once I graduate, really.

I was a bit surprised at the strange conclusions they offered at the end.

Re: Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

#223
I think you have to be comfortable with the nature of the industry you're working in. Startups are volatile beasts. One minute you're on top, the next you're picking up quarters off the floor trying to keep things afloat. I think what you're experiencing, more than anything, are the natural growing pains of being an early employee in a fledgling company.

I don't think you're deficient in any of the ways you list, but perhaps you are looking for a more stable work environment with a proven business model.

Re: Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

#224
I've had this problem in the past as well. Regarding the "is it me?" question, I don't think there's anywhere near enough info to answer, but the fact that you're being introspective on the matter is a very good sign.

I can offer a few pieces of advice. First, be direct but exceedingly rational with your co-workers - especially your superiors. Sometimes it helps to start conversations regarding conflicting ideas under the assumption that you're wrong.

Also, watch your assumptions. Sometimes when people get frustrated about things it's really easy for our assumptions to solidify into fact, and it's just as easy to feel justified launching into a spirited argument fuelled by all this fact.

Finally, if you think you're expressing yourself well, and you don't agree with the direction things are taking, you're 100% totally justified in leaving. I don't care if you're a minimum wage employee, your time is your scarcest resource. Don't invest it in something you don't want to own.

Annnd really long (but hopefully interesting) anecdote time...

I used to work for a very small, now fairly famous start-up non-profit which was cofounded by Edie Widder of Discovery Channel/Giant Squid fame. She wasn't running it because she didn't feel that she had the fundraising or business acumen. She decided to cofound with a former marketing exec, and to make him CEO.

I worked for them indirectly and directly for a combined 5 years. It was the kind of life-consuming work that one only does when they're very passionate. And I was as it was incredibly rewarding.

Our mission was to develop very inexpensive sensors for very broad scale in-situ monitoring of estuarine environments (the mission has broadened since then). When I first came on directly, we made a huge push to win a seven figure grant. Engineering was told by the CEO to push, and to push hard because this would be the money we'd be using to go from prototype to small-scale manufacturing.

Except after we won it, engineering wasn't given a budget. As time went on, our feeling was that we were having to beg for every expenditure. In the mean time lots of money was being spent on marketing, with the justification that it would be bringing in the "real big bucks." Of course, there was also plenty of disagreement over certain expenditures. Was X really marketing-related, or was that a personal expense?

Obviously there was lots of infighting -- mostly by people who typically like to avoid confrontation. People would wait to address something until they were so exasperated that it'd just boil out, and everybody involved would get very defensive very quickly.

I started to wake up to the idea that we were working more on our arguments and less on our mission. I'd spent every second I could over the past five years building a monolithic realtime telemetry system with the idea in mind that this was a step toward literally saving the world. Leaving felt wrong, like I was abandoning my purpose and my friends, but after a while staying felt more wrong.

On my last day there I sat down with Edie for an informal exit interview. For the first time I explained to her my position as directly and rationally as I could. This wasn't out of some new-found maturity, but because I had nothing to lose and nothing to gain.

I stated my observations, listened to her responses, and conceded on the points where my knowledge of the situation was lacking. At the end of the conversation I still felt justified for leaving, but I think she understood my justification. Prior to that, we were always putting her in a situation where she had no other choice but to feel cornered and defensive.

Not long after I left the CEO became the former CEO. For a brief period during this process, there were two separate sets of legal council arguing against each other - I believe with each claiming to represent the company. When the dust settled, relationships were tarnished, names had been dragged through the mud, and most importantly the work had all but stopped.

Fast-forward to today and things are much different. In many ways they've been terribly stunted, but there's better accounting, better employee representation on the board, and most importantly - a unified focus. They have turned into the organization I wanted to be working for back when I left. In the mean time, I've been in a constant struggle to find something anywhere near as rewarding. If I could afford to do so, I'd go back to work for them in a second -- on my own dime.

You'll notice that I spend a lot of time talking about the "evil" CEO here. That's not the point. The point is that a significant part of it was me. Sure, the company had some growing up to do, but I had just as much, if not more.

Although, if anyone reading this happens to be looking to make a very high-impact donation to a great nonprofit - give Edie a call. I promise she won't disappoint.

Re: Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

#226
post #32

You are none of the above. If you've got a few years of development experience in companies like that, I recommend you "find a boss [you] respect" by becoming your own boss. Start with consulting. These engagements are different than employment because often times they're not full-time and you can stagger a couple of contracts together at the same time. This is to your advantage because you now have two "bosses" (cli…

great advice and I agree. Consulting and working hourly changed my perspective a lot.

Re: Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

#227
I am founder and CTO of a growing startup (Comufy) and I very much see where you are coming from.

The truth is that managing people is hard. Every person is different and you need to understand the personality of each one of your staff and it is not easy. The way you communicate with each person is a reflexion of your understanding of their personality and sometimes you get it wrong.

Suppose that you just realised that despite your best efforts, what you have been working on for the past year will not sell. Your board is maxing pressure on you and you decide to explore a new avenue. You now need to communicate the news to your employees, without making them panic, and to try to get them onboard to your new vision. Well I can tell you it's hard, and it happens! It certainly happened to us more than I wished for. You are going to have to be a politician! You need to minimise the failure while painting a beautiful and bright future ahead, even though you don't know yet whether it will work. This is probably what you refer to as "Bullshit".

And then that's just managing people. Managing a company is so much more than this. You make a ridiculous amount of decisions daily, and some of them will not please everybody. And some of them you will come back on.

Finally, remember that your boss is human too, and if he appears to be an arse at times, it is probably because he learned over time that being the best friend of his staff is a very bad idea. When a staff member is not performing, you are going to have to fix this. And pushing a staff member to improve is a lot easier done if that staff member thinks of you as his boss, and not his mate!

Re: Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Boston, I've found loyalty and reputation are very important qualities people look for and strive for. People stick with jobs through the muck and the mud. Like we do the winters. In California, people switch jobs at the drop of a hat, and a long chain of startup gigs of 1 or 2 years each is super common and even seen as great experience. Despite being California born and raised, I much prefer Boston's work ethic…

Despite being California born and raised, I much prefer Boston's work ethic and loyalty. Honest, non-judgmental question: why ? I get the value of loyalty to people. That I can go on board with. I'll gladly work my ass off or suffer to support people or causes I believe in. However, companies deserve no such loyalty. A pile of other peoples' money that will gladly get rid of you on no notice, or make you answer to an…

Ultimately all meaning is socially constructed. We have basically two givens in life: we're born and we die. Everything you do in between is an arbitrary choice - certain choices are more popular than others because we don't live in a vacuum and people can't help but be influenced by others, but that doesn't make them intrinsically right or wrong.

I'll flip the question around with another non-judgmental question: how do you define "when it matters", and what would you rather be doing "when it doesn't matter"?

Re: Ask HN: Is it me or ...?

#230
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, take all my upvotes. :) The only thing I would amend is that most poor managers aren't the "slaver" types (if you end up reporting to one, it'll be obvious and you'll know to run as far and as fast as possible). Instead, they're weak -- incapable of protecting their people and productivity. Weak managers come in a lot of flavors, and it takes time to discern when one isn't working out. For example, you could ha…

Exactly. I received a very valuable piece of advice in my first job out of college, when I reported to someone who seemed to be the slave-driving type. That advice was this: "Everyone's got a boss." It's something to think about. Shit tends to roll downhill, and not because people are actively attempting to be sociopaths (at least not in 90% of cases). It's because they're under even more pressure than you are. If yo…

Honestly, your word of "BS" blind me of understanding the true meaning of your paragraph.
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