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Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

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Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#221

Post by userbinator »

The sibling comment about a blind programmer is very worth reading, because it is relevant to what I've observed about other (non-blind) programmers who are highly skilled: they do not need tools to tell them what to do, because they have completely internalised the structure of the program and can think about it as a whole. Incidentally, one of the things I often do when solving a problem --- be it finding a bug or fixing it, or implementing a new solution --- is to close my eyes and think deeply about it, without distraction.

I don't use IDEs either. A plaintext editor and a console window (for compiling, testing, and the occasional grepping) is enough. IMHO someone who is reliant on IDEs and autocomplete is in the same category as not knowing how to type without looking at the keys on the keyboard --- yes, you can get by, but you will never be able to code as fluently and effortlessly as those who can think deeply about the code entirely in their brain, and you'll be frequently writing code that looks reasonable when viewed in isolation but obviously redundant and/or inefficient if considered as part of the bigger whole.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#222

Post by modernerd »

I work with two types of LSP/LLM-averse programmers:

1. The HLSP user

This group does use an LSP, it turns out, only via you as the conduit: you are their Human Language Server Protocol. They'll ask, ‘can we pair today?’. From that point, navigating code, looking up method names and signatures, and flagging syntax errors before runtime or compile time is your job. How they find their way around when you're not there is unclear, but it's likely slower.

2. I am one with the machine

This crowd has been wrangling code long before IDEs, LSPs and LLMs. They've amassed a terrifying arsenal of tools to find files and references, bulk-rename, pull up docs, and twiddle bits in ways that looks fluent and natural enough when _they_ do it but would take months or years for you to learn if you didn't give up and go back to your IDE. When you ask them _how_ they just did something, they either pull up a short page of Elisp and say, "it's really quite simple we just reverse the node tree and iterate over the folded quarkenspace", or — if they're a vim user — say something like, "oh, that's just the hiboscus plugin, but piped through smark".

So the response to "how do you do it?" seems to be broadly summed up as, "the way we've always done it".

Group 2 isn't necessarily _better_ than LSP/autocomplete/heavy LLM users (people who are very proficient with more modern tools can look like magicians too). The LLM-free crowd were just forced early to become proficient, they've gotten very good with their home-rolled methods, and — in many cases — they probably wouldn't benefit that much from LSPs, or they use them but with features that bug them switched off.

Group 1 would probably better be served by an LSP but either don't believe in the benefits or is just comfortable with their current setup and feels no pressure to change.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#223

Post by daltonpinto »

brabel wrote: post #184
daltonpinto wrote: post #99

This question reminds me of the first time I met a blind programmer. I asked him how he managed to code, and he replied with something that stayed with me: a good programmer should organize software in such a way that every piece of code has a clear and logical place. The organization should be so intuitive that anyone could build a mental model of the structure and navigate it easily, even without seeing it. It felt…

> Not only do I avoid using LSP features, but I’m also opposed to their use. While they can help with navigation, they may prevent developers from experiencing and addressing the underlying structural issues in their code. LSP by itself will not prevent anything. LSP (using the terminology from OP, but any IDE really) is just a tool like any other which allows you to do things faster. It doesn't matter how organized…

Of course that are good things and maybe I wrote in a too much harsh way.

Linting features and autocompletes are nice, also autocomplete features are nice to have.

The issue that I pointed mostly resonates with the idea that depending on LSP is the big issue.

I personally use Neovim with minimal stuff, I run lint and tests manually and not automatically, because it feels to me like push notifications taking my attention elsewhere, so I go to fix them later after what my intention is already expressed in code.

But agree and dyisagree that "Keeping the code organized is still good advice, but has nothing to do with using an IDE.". It should not be based on IDE, but an IDE on the hands of an inexperienced dev may lead to some comfort that should not be there.

I reviewed many code written by junior people, and very often I see people adding code in random places that later may let the application to be hard to follow and everything "seems fine" to them.

Other smell is like, but "it is so easy to rename a variables with my IDE" even though I believe that refactoring is nice to be done, but if we keep changing names so often, why don't we read the code that is being edited to understand well its intention and maybe realized that a big chunk of code should be split and the name choice will be completely distinct once proper refactor is made.

My point is not about avoid automation, is about having a dependency on that because the code is not manageable to people anymore, but manageable by automation mostly.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#224

Post by userbinator »

brabel wrote: post #184
daltonpinto wrote: post #99

This question reminds me of the first time I met a blind programmer. I asked him how he managed to code, and he replied with something that stayed with me: a good programmer should organize software in such a way that every piece of code has a clear and logical place. The organization should be so intuitive that anyone could build a mental model of the structure and navigate it easily, even without seeing it. It felt…

> Not only do I avoid using LSP features, but I’m also opposed to their use. While they can help with navigation, they may prevent developers from experiencing and addressing the underlying structural issues in their code. LSP by itself will not prevent anything. LSP (using the terminology from OP, but any IDE really) is just a tool like any other which allows you to do things faster. It doesn't matter how organized…

When you have to manually search for files and then Ctrl+F to find functions, lookup docs in a web browser (which I hear is how people who don't use IDEs still do that), or manually run a linter/compiler to see warnings in your code, you're just being really inefficient.

It's inefficient the first time but you quickly build a working memory and a deeper mental model of the code, which becomes even more useful in the future.

Why don't you use automation to help your job when the whole point of your job is automation?

That sort of thinking will get your job automated out of existence.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#225

Post by ahartmetz »

PittleyDunkin wrote: post #149
dijksterhuis wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i avoid using autocomplete because it forces me to think about every single thing i’m doing. every line of code is a liability. every line of code needs to be thought about. every line of code is precious. spamming autocomplete means i’m not thinking about what i’m doing, even the simple stuff like writing a for loop statement.

I don't use autocomplete, either. Most of what an LSP gives you is more data to scan semantics faster. > every line of code is a liability. every line of code needs to be thought about. every line of code is precious. I personally think this is ridiculous. It's code. It's just formal instructions. You process them and move on. It's not describing the face of god. If you need to think so much write less clever code.

Code is read more often than written. It's not make the computer do something and done.

The right kind of clever results in "oh, it can be that simple?", not "what the hell is that line noise?"

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#226

Post by CarVac »

I want to be able to reason about my code without sitting in front of it, so I simply don't use those tools and this understanding of the codebase builds over time.

When you're working in one area of it, you read it and make additions in it repeatedly, and eventually your familiarity increases until you have mastery.

Then you can code anywhere, anytime, and merely type it in when you get back to the keyboard.

It's like learning a (human) language. As an analogy: "[foreign language] speakers who don't use a dictionary, how do you do it?" But the foreign language is your codebase. Learn it.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#227

Post by bossyTeacher »

modernerd wrote: post #222

I work with two types of LSP/LLM-averse programmers: 1. The HLSP user This group does use an LSP, it turns out, only via you as the conduit: you are their Human Language Server Protocol. They'll ask, ‘can we pair today?’. From that point, navigating code, looking up method names and signatures, and flagging syntax errors before runtime or compile time is your job. How they find their way around when you're not there…

Very well summarised

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#228

Post by jazzyjackson »

troupo wrote: post #168
jazzyjackson wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point re: using error messages. If I call a function incorrectly, the call stack will helpfully point out the file and line number of the location the error was thrown from, just a few keystrokes in vim will get you there.

> the call stack will helpfully point out the file and line number of the location the error was thrown from, just a few keystrokes in vim will get you there. Or Cmd+Click/Ctrl+Click in an IDE

Uhhh that would involve a mouse, gross ; )

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#229

Post by aguaviva »

brabel wrote: post #198
jasonpeacock wrote: post #12

You should try turning off those features yourself for at least a month and see what happens ;) You’ll learn the answers yourself, much better than us trying to explain them. You’ll learn where all the reference docs live for your language, libraries, and frameworks, and along the way you’ll learn more by actually reading the docs. You’ll learn the value of good project organization and file naming, and explicit impo…

To think that some people are still writing code like in the 70's. Not using productivity tools is just hurting you. I don't know what sort of misplaced sensation of superiority doing things the hard way may bring to you, but please don't give bad advice like this to young people. If they want to experience writing code without the help of modern tools, they can just use one of the so many languages whose tooling suc…

To think that some people are still writing code like in the 70s.

This is a muddled hyperbolization. These features barely existed (in terms of widespread use) even 10 years ago, but everyone got along just fine, even founded FAANG-scale companies without them, and so on. Yet you're making it sound like if you aren't using them, then you're basically still writing COBOL.

Not using productivity tools is just hurting you.

The commenter very clearly isn't saying you shouldn't use them. And their point had nothing to do with any "sensation of superiority".

They simply meant that -- yes, it is possible to not only be productive, but highly productive without these tools -- and that if you just tried to get along with them for a while, you just might learn a thing or two. For example, if one is even the slightest bit hesitant as to how one would go about resolving one of the issues that the OP asked about, without the help of modern tooling features:

   What do you do if you need to look up the definition/implementation of some function which is in some other file?
Then one definitely has some important learning to do.

Re: Ask HN: Programmers who don't use autocomplete/LSP, how do you do it?

#230

Post by svilen_dobrev »

daltonpinto wrote: post #99

This question reminds me of the first time I met a blind programmer. I asked him how he managed to code, and he replied with something that stayed with me: a good programmer should organize software in such a way that every piece of code has a clear and logical place. The organization should be so intuitive that anyone could build a mental model of the structure and navigate it easily, even without seeing it. It felt…

some colleague some time ago argued that one can write code without much/any spaces, because, "you can see, it's colored differently".. sounding like, "i am breathing".

All these IDE+- things may be nice-to-have but most soon become crutches, and then you cannot live without them, and only walk their walk, not yours.

Just turning off syntax coloring freaks recent developers.. even quite good ones.. i observed it.

Then the trend to pollute untyped-languages' codebases with so-called-"typing" noise, because "it would be IDeditor-friendly" (??) . Form over function, yes..

And another observation from many experiences.. any kind of generated code alienates its users, i.e. programmers. Yet to see how current LLM-ical trend scores in this.. As of last interview, "we need software curators, not programmers"

have fun!

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