Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#221

Post by kkielhofner » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:23 AM UTC

sneak wrote: post #205

kypro wrote: post #147

I know this is a controversial view, but I think employers should not be allowed to run background checks unless important for the role (government work, access to children, etc) and where it is important for the role it should only return the criminal convictions that might be relevant to the role. If you were arrested for robbery when you were younger perhaps because you had a drug addiction then that person should…

I think crimes of violence are relevant to any/all roles. I don’t want to hire or work with anyone who has ever at any point in their life used violence to attempt to solve problems. I am fine with a percentage of human beings being blacklisted permanently from access to much of society. Violence has no place in our world. I won’t even hire former cops. It is, unfortunately, illegal in the US to explicitly avoid hiri…

This is an extremely privileged position.

In many environments violence is a part of life and necessary for survival.

One hypothetical scenario of millions:

You live and grow up in a high-crime area. Someone attacks you, a family member, etc. You defend yourself to protect your own life or that of a loved one. A cellphone video records the end of the encounter where you appear to be the aggressor.

You get an assault charge.

You work your ass off, beat a variety of odds, and make something of yourself. Many years later you’re passed over for a position simply because you came from an environment the person doing the hiring can’t possibly fathom. A person who has clearly never been in the position of “it’s me/my wife/my child or them”.

Same for ex-military. Are you aware that the United States military is often considered to be the “only way out” for a substantial portion of the enlisted? That something like 90% of military roles are non-combat related?

I’m not a violent person either but this is an extremely naive, judgmental, and downright discriminatory position.

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#222

Post by jeffffff » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:24 AM UTC

droptablemain wrote: post #168

When you are searching Indeed, you can check the "Fair Chance" option where the employer has indicated a willingness to work with this kind of stuff. This is not something I'm experienced in though. Best of luck.

Speaking of Indeed, the first employee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Lamprecht) was a felon and a great engineer

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#223

Post by rpmisms » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:25 AM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #135

runjake wrote: post #23

I don't have much helpful to add, but I had a colleague who had a bad night, acquired some felony charges for a firearm-related assault and they got fired/blacklisted for a few years. Subsequently, they did IT contract work behind the scenes with small contractors, kept in touch with his professional network, was super helpful to the rest of us, and after serious concerns and much debate, got back into his prior care…

> I had a colleague who had a bad night, acquired some felony charges for a firearm-related assault That’s one hell of a bad night.

I mean, I carry a gun regularly, and if I ever have to use it, it's 50/50 whether only not I'll be charged.

Actually much less likely in my locale, but if I'm out of town...

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#224

Post by SoftTalker » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:26 AM UTC

NegativeLatency wrote: post #214

300bps wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An assault charge is likely relevant for most positions. If I hire a convicted felon with a track record of assault and they end up assaulting another employee or customer, I’d feel responsible. The victim would probably hold me legally responsible. I’d feel more comfortable hiring someone with a 100% track record of never having been convicted of assault. If you disagree, is there any number of assault convictions t…

I think it really depends. Someone who had an a assault conviction at say 18 and is now 40, is a different situation from someone who very recently assaulted someone (but also how could you expect someone to change if they're never given a chance). There's also the negative case of someone who has assaulted someone but was never caught, you can't safely eliminate that because there's no record of it.

Assault is also not always what you might imagine. It doesn't require physical harm or even contact. Just putting someone in fear of harm can be assault. E.g. a disagreement getting heated and someone saying "I'm going to kick your ass" is technically assault. As is brandishing a weapon or making other threatening gestures even without physical contact or harm.

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#225

Post by sneak » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:31 AM UTC

kkielhofner wrote: post #221

sneak wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think crimes of violence are relevant to any/all roles. I don’t want to hire or work with anyone who has ever at any point in their life used violence to attempt to solve problems. I am fine with a percentage of human beings being blacklisted permanently from access to much of society. Violence has no place in our world. I won’t even hire former cops. It is, unfortunately, illegal in the US to explicitly avoid hiri…

This is an extremely privileged position. In many environments violence is a part of life and necessary for survival. One hypothetical scenario of millions: You live and grow up in a high-crime area. Someone attacks you, a family member, etc. You defend yourself to protect your own life or that of a loved one. A cellphone video records the end of the encounter where you appear to be the aggressor. You get an assault…

It is definitionally judgemental and discriminatory. Hiring is the practice of discriminating against undesirable hires by using one’s judgement.

We can discuss whether or not it’s naive, but it’s served me quite well for decades thus far. The rest of your comment seems like a simple emotional appeal.

All hiring is discriminatory; there are more applicants than there are positions. Discrimination is not a bad thing, it’s just discrimination based on built-in traits (race, sex, national origin, etc) that is bad.

Discriminating in hiring based on the adult decisions of a human being is not only in-bounds, it is literally the whole of hiring. Some people studied software, some didn’t. Some dropped out of high school to start companies, some went to university.

This is one of the reasons I think religious discrimination shouldn’t be prohibited in hiring (choice of religion is not a built in trait, but a choice made as an adult). Same with work history - going to work for the armed forces is an unforced choice.

This sort of categorization and discrimination is a great and useful thing and we should do more of it. People are not interchangeable.

You could make the exact same argument against hiring from the ivys versus community colleges, yet I don’t see anyone arguing for blinding of university names on CVs, or hiding the fact of whether or not someone studied at university.

When hiring our job is to find the best possible candidate. It’s not wrong or bad to use all available data to do that. All else being equal, I’d much rather hire someone without a history of violence or history of work in violent industries.

Freedom of association is one of our most powerful tools for shaping the society in which we wish to live.

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#226

Post by ldehaan » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:32 AM UTC

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Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#227

Post by yieldcrv » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:34 AM UTC

chihuahua wrote: post #211

al_borland wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was involved in hiring I was told we couldn’t do any online research on potential candidates, like LinkedIn or Facebook, as it might give us information on them being part of a protected class. It’s easier to justify not picking someone based on merit when there is no knowledge of those things.

When I was looking for a job a few months ago, every single application required answering multiple questions about whether I'm Hispanic, and if not, which race I am. Additionally, some employers demand to know my sexual identity AND orientation, which I consider ludicrous and obscene. "Before we can consider your application, we must know who you like to have sex with!" Ostensibly this is for some kind of reporting…

I've seen so much vitriol from the pronoun army - the ones that don't need them but want to make it inclusive for the people that do need them - that I really wonder if its optional in the organizations/applications that ask

like "oh he didn't write a pronoun at all! he's not a culture fit!" we've decided to move forward with other candidates that more closely align with our qualifications

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#228

Post by rpmisms » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:36 AM UTC

fr0sty wrote: post #7

VirusNewbie wrote: post #2

Assault charges but not physical violence? What in the world? I'm so sorry you got that on your record. I would look at smaller startups that might make it easy to just escalate to the CEO if you have a good explanation, rather than having an HR department stop you right away. EDIT: I thought assault meant physical violence, but not harm while battery meant harm. I was wrong I guess?

> Assault charges but not physical violence? What in the world? "The legal definition of assault is an intentional act that gives another person reasonable fear that they'll be physically harmed or offensively touched. No physical contact or injury has to actually occur, but the accused person must have intentionally acted in a way to cause that fear." https://vindicatelaw.com/assault-vs-battery-are-they-the-sam...

It's one of the most ridiculous charges. It's also remarkably easy to avoid: simply replace the "I'm gonna" part of a threat with "I hope someone".

Example: "I'm gonna shoot you" is legally assault in my jurisdiction. "Someone should shoot you": not assault.

Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#229

Post by ldehaan » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:40 AM UTC

system2 wrote: post #96

In the United States if you start your own IT company and sell your services to your clients there won't be any questioning who you are or where you even studied. As long as you solve the business problems they will pay you greatly. If it is a matter of survival, I'd pick this route. You can easily make 6 figures or even 7 figures within a few years. You do not need to find a full-time job at a fancy company. Long st…

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Re: Ask HN: Any felons successfully found IT work post-release?

#230

Post by bionsystem » Thu, Jan 04, 2024, 1:42 AM UTC

RickJWagner wrote: post #216

sneak wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think crimes of violence are relevant to any/all roles. I don’t want to hire or work with anyone who has ever at any point in their life used violence to attempt to solve problems. I am fine with a percentage of human beings being blacklisted permanently from access to much of society. Violence has no place in our world. I won’t even hire former cops. It is, unfortunately, illegal in the US to explicitly avoid hiri…

That's crazy. Cops prevent violence. Remember when a few cities tried having 'police free zones'? I think it was Portland that had murders within a week. Better re-think that one.

That's not what he means, or maybe he does but I didn't see it that way. A cop or a former field military lives in violence day in and day out. Sometimes they even try to cope with substance abuse. Imagine getting in an argument with somebody like that ; I've been there, thankfully he was family and I don't think could hurt me but still, I've been thinking about that for weeks and lost a decent amount of sleep.

It's unfortunately the case with tough district/city people with criminal record. Once you live in violence for more than a couple weeks, and have to assume physical threat and retaliate, I'm pretty sure it changes you somewhat fundamentally, and unfortunately those people rarely have the proper support to adjust to civil duties.