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Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

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Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#221

Post by URSpider94 »

alexgmcm wrote: post #217
URSpider94 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason you don’t have personal relationships with students is not because of MeToo or the current political environment, it’s because it’s inappropriate, and always has been. And please don’t tell me it’s because of nerdy academics not being able to handle it. If you find yourself meeting with a single student anywhere but the office, discussing things that aren’t related to work, for any significant amount of ti…

This is a bit sad though, one of the Professors at my University used to invite even his undergraduate tutor group to his house for dinner with his family to get to know them better. It was a bit unusual but it seemed to work, I mean he was one of the most popular professors and you felt like you could approach him about anything. Although to be fair, I suppose that wasn't a single student, and they probably spent mo…

I see nothing wrong with inviting study groups, research groups, or even small groups of 2-3 students over for dinner, on outings, etc. In fact, I think it's perfectly appropriate, and a great idea.

The issue in my mind comes when you are having INDIVIDUAL meetings in social contexts, with either employees or students. The first question to ask yourself is, "could this be construed as a date". The second question is, "if I wouldn't have this meeting with someone in my romantic attraction group, because it wouldn't be appropriate, then am I unfairly disadvantaging my students who are in that group"

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#222

Post by tabtab »

throwaway98234 wrote: post #2

My experience, PhD, 10 years postdoc, 10 years in startups (all in UK). I actually didn't get any hassle as a PhD student, possibly since I was a mature student and wouldn't take any shit, I didn't need to get into any fights but I was willing to and I guess that comes out as confidence. As a postdoc I experienced several attempts at bullying, all worked out in my favour as I was sensible enough to join the union on…

Re: "I actually didn't get any hassle as a PhD student, possibly since I was a mature student and wouldn't take any shit, I didn't need to get into any fights but I was willing to and I guess that comes out as confidence."

That's part of general "people skills". Many of us in STEM have a shortage of them, to be honest, and thus it's a "solution" that's not always easy to come by.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#223

Post by aspaceman »

jkhdigital wrote: post #121
aspaceman wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve always wondered how people dismiss academic abuse. Now I know! It’s “cause the students are just lazy / expect to be told what to do”. Bullshit. My previous academic advisor would take out his aggressions and frustrations on his students. One specific instance, he began yelling at the lab because there were footprints on the couch - (I had taken a nap last night after finishing work, whoops). “Whose responsibili…

And it sounds like you might be extrapolating based on one egregious example... I think we can agree that there are abusive advisors, and immature/unmotivated students in academia. Can abusive professors get away with more than they otherwise could due to the culture of academia? Yeah, I’d probably agree with that. But that doesn’t mean academia is full of such people, or that every student who complains of abuse is…

The point is rather that determining “objective abuse” is entirely tangential. No way to determine if my story (or any others) is true.

But in academia it can be true, and when it is true, there is nothing that can be done. To a further extent than industrial roles. Granted some jobs have the same problems, and I’ve felt much more powerless within corporate structures than any military one.

Determining objective abuses is for determining objective guilt - not for nudging the system. You can’t possibly believe that all claims of abuse are the imagined fictions of so many students in some sort of shared state of madness. Perhaps some, but that many? It’s ridiculous.

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#224

Post by krageon »

Yes, it's just as common. Unless you happen to be able to sell yourself well and are in high demand (for example a personable and somewhat capable programmer), your boss knows he has power over you. It naturally follows they will abuse it, because for some reason that's how a lot of people operate. It's not always conscious, but for the subject that distinction doesn't really matter :)

Re: Ask HN: Is abuse from supervisors as common in industry as in academia?

#225

Post by nopeNopeNooope »

It's the lack of resources and assistance that makes it bad. Even the lowest margin industry jobs have a proper feast of resources for the use.

Whereas anything that someone has in academia has been hard won after years of paper wrangling, and you need to show something for it immediately.

That means you're stretched thin as a supervisor, because you need to not only wrangle your paperwork, but supervise students who all have to be showing positive contributions at every step.

When someone isn't, it's generally easier to torture them to death than it is for them to find their legs and right the ship, or realize this is a bad fit for them and leave.

After a while, that's the default, and not the exception.

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