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Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

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Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#221

Post by ken »

iso1631 wrote: post #76
loftyai wrote: post #64

I can't speak for every company out there, but for us, we've discovered that resumes and whiteboard challenges are bad predictors of great engineers. So, we simply come up with a small project that's related to what we would have you work on if you were hired and give you around a week to finish it. You can use other people's code snippets online as well as any libraries you see fit. As long as the end result is good…

So if you have a years worth of work todo, and 50 people apply, you get the work done for free?

Only if they've found a way to consistently defeat Brooks's Law -- and if they have, there are much more efficient ways to exploit it than counting on free labor of uncertain quality.

Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#222

Post by mcv »

ozzmotik wrote: post #200
mcv wrote: post #98

A gap in your resume is called a sabbatical. You spent a year doing something else that's more important to you because you can afford it. Medical plus some recovery time is a great reason. But just playing around with some new tech, investing in your education, or even spending time on your other interests, work for charity, or see something of the world, are great reasons. Slacking off may not sound great, but many…

what if the gap isn't one I took because I could afford it but because i literally could not manage to acquire a job otherwise despite attempting to

Of course there are creative ways to present that as a sabbatical too, but that might be putting a bit too much spin on things. The big question is: what did you do in that time apart from job hunting. Did you study new skills in order to put them on your CV and improve your chances? Then focus on the new skills you learned.

In my experience, though, it's not that big of a deal. I've been unemployed for over a year in the wake of the dotcom crash, from 2003 to 2004 in my case. I still regret not using that year more productively, and mostly spent it playing Morrowind. Applied for tons of jobs in the mean time, but couldn't even get invited to an interview. Once I did find a job, I found 3 of them. 3 employers were suddenly eager to hire me, and none of them cared that I spent that year mostly playing Morrowind. Sometimes the job market just sucks, and many employers understand that. But your story certainly looks better if you spent that year working on some interesting private or open source project, instead of playing a game.

Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#223

Post by ken »

I stopped putting months on my resume. Nobody cares what month you joined or left. A gap of less than 2 years won't even be noticed.

"Job X, 2000-2003; Job Y, 2004-2008." I guarantee no interviewer is ever going to say "So you left Job X on December 31st, 2003, and started Job Y on January 1st, 2004? I don't believe it. How long was this gap, really?"

Job hunting often takes months, and software engineers make enough money that they have enough saved to not need to work every day to make rent. If they give it any thought at all, interviewers are going to assume you quit in the fall, spent a few months on vacation, spent a few months on job hunting, and started again in the spring.

It's become an industry joke in my circles that software engineers never 'take vacation'. They work hard for 6 to 18 months until their startup goes bust (or their consulting contract is up), take a few months off, and jump in again.

Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#224

Post by another-dave »

Gustomaximus wrote: post #216
lainga wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I bring up the converse question - who would actively look for job gaps? And why?

I usually look for time patterns in CVs. Gaps could be part of that. If someone turns over many jobs quickly I don't want to pay to bring someone up to speed only to see them leave when they should hit their stride. Or a month or 2 gap after every job can indicate they are getting the boot as most people swap one job for another. But one gap for a year, not many would really care I suspect as long as there is a reaso…

> Or a month or 2 gap after every job can indicate they are getting the boot as most people swap one job for another.

Or it's a chance to take a stress-free break after finishing up one job as you've already another lined up.

Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#225

Post by Gustomaximus »

another-dave wrote: post #224
Gustomaximus wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I usually look for time patterns in CVs. Gaps could be part of that. If someone turns over many jobs quickly I don't want to pay to bring someone up to speed only to see them leave when they should hit their stride. Or a month or 2 gap after every job can indicate they are getting the boot as most people swap one job for another. But one gap for a year, not many would really care I suspect as long as there is a reaso…

> Or a month or 2 gap after every job can indicate they are getting the boot as most people swap one job for another. Or it's a chance to take a stress-free break after finishing up one job as you've already another lined up.

Possible. I try to do that myself every change but typically I find/see companies wants you ASAP (especially if you have a decent notice period already) and is flexible with a week or few, not a month or few unless executive level.

Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#226

Post by tetraca »

m_fayer wrote: post #110
tetraca wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After dealing with a few of these things, I've resolved every time I get one of these applications in the future, I'll just decline. If you want me to spend like 1-2 hours doing some small exercise that proves I can program, fine, but I'm not wasting my spare time coding the moon for you with your mind numbing full stack crud app project for some ultimately middling opportunity.

We do basically what OP said, but we ask the candidate to spend more or less 4 hours on the exercise, in one sitting or two. We also give them a fairly large project to do and say "We know you can't remotely complete this in 4 hours. Pick a nice subset that you find compelling and that demonstrates your strengths, and code that. Explain your choices." It's worked well for us - it demonstrates not just coding ability…

> Pick a nice subset that you find compelling and that demonstrates your strengths, and code that.

That would be fairly reasonable. The tests I got, had a heavy project offloaded upfront as effectively part 1 of the interview, with no such communicated expectation.

Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#227

Post by anon73044 »

ken wrote: post #223

I stopped putting months on my resume. Nobody cares what month you joined or left. A gap of less than 2 years won't even be noticed. "Job X, 2000-2003; Job Y, 2004-2008." I guarantee no interviewer is ever going to say "So you left Job X on December 31st, 2003, and started Job Y on January 1st, 2004? I don't believe it. How long was this gap, really?" Job hunting often takes months, and software engineers make enough…

All the Dev jobs that have required security clearance all wanted exact hire and termination dates. For some of those from years ago, I'm giving a date in good faith, but if they really care, they'll catch it in the background check.

Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#228

Post by pm24601 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #19
toomuchtodo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a lie (providing care for yourself), and your potential employer has no right to additional information as it relates to your medical condition and why you needed the time away from employment. Don't disclose what you don't have to. It provides you no benefit, and can only be used against you. Why would you sandbag your employer opportunities (and the ability to support yourself) because of faux moral hazard…

It is a lie. You weren't providing care for a loved one (that's not how anyone would reasonably interpret 'love one'). It is indeed none of your employer's business. But still you should not deliberately mislead with an untruth.

Interviewers are only supposed to ask questions that are directly relevant to the job duties.

Whatever the reason for the job gap, there is no possible answer that is legally permissible. Remember more and more states are banning questions about jail time as well (look up 'ban the box'). So even if the person said, "I spent time in jail" that is still problematic. They may not have been convicted and considered innocent. Background checking services exist for a reason.

An interviewer asking about a job gap is already on sketchy legal ground.

The interviewer asking an inappropriate question is not entitled to a truthful answer to an inappropriate question that is not related to job qualifications.

Here is an example to help understand why this is problematic.

Lets say the candidate is religious. They took a year off to go on a missionary trip. If the candidate answers correctly (i.e. doesn't lie) the interviewer just discovered the candidate's religion. This knowledge is now super problematic if the candidate is rejected.

This is why good interviewers do not ask about hobbies or what the person does outside of work hours. There is a real risk of discovering protected information (sexual orientation, religion, national origin, marital status, family situation - including plans to have children, etc.).

Remember a court of law is going to hear the question and the TMI answer that the candidate felt compelled to supply.

The intent of the interviewer will be determined by a court NOT the interviewer.

Re: Ask HN: How to explain job gaps on the resume?

#229

Post by eeniac »

loftyai wrote: post #64

I can't speak for every company out there, but for us, we've discovered that resumes and whiteboard challenges are bad predictors of great engineers. So, we simply come up with a small project that's related to what we would have you work on if you were hired and give you around a week to finish it. You can use other people's code snippets online as well as any libraries you see fit. As long as the end result is good…

Here's my take on it.

Given I'm in a situation similar to OP's — took 4 weeks just to catch up with sleep and dismantle anxiety.

I was approached about a job. The process includes a home assessment with a 5 day deadline. Definitely it's doable, it's a filter yadda yadda.

But I'm asking you if the scene is really swarmed with impostors and bullshitters that you have to enforce people working for free for you to handpick? I call home assessments a tool for locating tractable employees. You know, those who wouldn't mind the OT every 2nd week of the months.

Hell, they already proved motivated working for free when they solved that home task you gave then.

You wouldn't ask the cook to work for free just to taste his dish and then decline without paying him. You wouldn't do that to a driver either. To a gardener.

Why the heck does the developer has to jump through those hoops then.

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