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Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

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Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#211

Post by yesnomaybe »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #89
al_borland wrote: post #18

I’ve been thinking a lot about getting something from Framework, as I like their ethos around relatability. However, I currently have an M1 Pro which works just fine, so I’ve been kicking the can down the road while worrying that it just won’t be up to par in terms of what I’m used to from Apple. Not just the processor, but everything. Even in the Intel Mac days, I ended up buying a Asus Zephyrus G14, which had nothi…

I recently upgraded from an M1 mac book pro 15", which I was pretty happy with, to the M4 max pro 16". I've been extremely impressed with the new laptop. The key metric I use to judge performance is build speed for our main project. It's a thing I do a few dozen times per day. The M1 took about four minutes to run our integration tests. I should add that those tests run in parallel and make heavy use of docker. There…

I'm in the same boat. Still running an MBP M1 Pro 14". Luckily I bought with 32GB in 2021 when it came out so it can run all things docker similar to your setup. I recently ran a production like workload, real stress test, it was the first time I had the fan spinning constantly but it was still responsive and a pleasure to use (and sit next to!) for a few hours.

I've been window shopping for a couple of months now, have test run Linux and really liking the experience there (played on older Intel hardware). I am completely de-appled software-wise, with the 1 exception of iMessages because of my kids using ipads. But that's really about it. So, I'm ready to jump.

But so far, all my research hasn't lead to anything where I would be convinced not to regret in the end. A desktop Ryzen 7700 or 9600X would probably suffice, but it would mean I need to constantly switch machines and I'm not sure if I'm ready for that. All mobile non-macs have significant downsides and you can't even try before you buy anywhere typically. So you'd be relying on reviews. But everybody has a different tolerance for changes like track pad haptics, thermals, noise, screen quality etc. So, those reviews don't give enough confidence. I've had 13 Apple years so far. First 5 were pleasant, next 3 really sucked but since Apple silicon I feel I have totally forgotten all the suffering in the non-Apple world and with those noisy, slow Intel Macs.

I think it has to boil down to serious reasons why the Apple hardware is not fit for one's purpose. Be it better gaming, extreme amount of storage, insane amount of RAM, all while ignoring the value of "the perfect package" and it's low power draw, low noise etc. Something that does not make one regret the change. DHH has done it and so have others, but he switched to Framework Desktop AI Max. So it came with a change in lifestyle. And he also does gaming, that's another good reason (to switch to Linux or dual boot (as he mentioned Fortnite)).

I don't have such reasons currently. Unless we see hardware that is at least as fast and enjoyable like the M1 Pro or higher. I tried Asahi but it's quite cumbersome with the dual boot and also DP Alt not there yet and maybe never will, so I gave up on that.

So, I'll wait another year and will see then. I hope I don't get my company to buy me an M4 Max Ultra or so as that will ruin my desire to switch for 10 more years I guess.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#212

Post by munchlax »

I can build myself a new amd64 box for just under €200. Under €100 with used parts. Some older Dell and Lenovo laptops even work with coreboot.

An Airbook sets me back €1000, enough to buy a used car, and AFAICT is much more difficult to get fully working Linux on than my €200 amd64 build.

Why hasn't apple caught up?

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#213

Post by KingOfCoders »

aurareturn wrote: post #160
kangs wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes and no. i have macbook pro m4 and a zbook g1a (ai max 395+ ie strix halo) In day to day usage the strix halo is significantly faster, and especially when large context LLM and games are used - but also typical stuff like Lightroom (gpu heavy) etc. on the flip side the m4 battery life is significantly longer (but also the mpb is approx 1/4 heavier) for what its worth i also have a t14 with a snapdragon X elite and…

yes and no. i have macbook pro m4 and a zbook g1a (ai max 395+ ie strix halo) You're comparing the base M4 to a full fat Strix Halo that costs nearly $4,000. You can buy the base M4 chip in a Mac Mini for $500 on sale. A better comparison would be the M4 Max at that price. Here's a comparison I did between Strix Halo, M4 Pro, M4 Max: https://imgur.com/a/yvpEpKF As you can see, Strix Halo is behind M4 Pro in performan…

Someone has these two machines, and claims the x86 feels faster in his work.

You don't own any of the machines but have "made" a comparison by copying data from the internet I assume.

This is like explaining to someone who eats a sweet apple that the internet says the apple isn't sweet.

MacBook Pro, 2TB, 32gb, 3200 EUR

HP G1a, 2TB, 128gb, 3700 EUR

If we don't compare laptops but mini-PCs,

Evo X2, 2TB, 128gb, 2000 EUR,

Mac Mini, 2TB, 32gb, 2200 EUR

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#214

Post by penguin202 »

munchlax wrote: post #212

I can build myself a new amd64 box for just under €200. Under €100 with used parts. Some older Dell and Lenovo laptops even work with coreboot. An Airbook sets me back €1000, enough to buy a used car, and AFAICT is much more difficult to get fully working Linux on than my €200 amd64 build. Why hasn't apple caught up?

[dead]

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#215

Post by zillow »

musicale wrote: post #100
baq wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm, when developing software (a big project at $JOB) getting 3h out of a M3 MBP is a good day. IDE, build, test and crowdstrike are all quite power hungry.

> crowdstrike It is incredible that crowdstrike is still operating as a business. It is also hard to understand why companies continue to deploy shoddy, malware-like "security" software that decreases reliability while increasing the attack surface. Basically you need another laptop just to run the "security" software.

there's a few different reasons: - its pushed by gov (it gives full access to machines, huge backdoor) - its not actually the worst of its kind, sadly - their threat database is good (ie it will catch stuff) - it lets you look at everything on the machine (not the only one, but, its def. useful) - its big - cant be faulted for "we had it and we got pwned" - yep, sad as well

If operating systems weren't as poop as they are today, this would not be necessary - but here we are. And I bet you major OS manufacturers will not really fix their OSes without ensuring its just a fully walled garden (terrible for devs.. but you'll probably just run a linux vm for dev on top..). Bad intents lead to bad software.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#216

Post by zillow »

purpleidea wrote: post #107

Honestly, I have serious FOMO about this. I am never going to run a Mac (or worse: Windows) I'm 100% on Linux, but I seriously hate it that I can't reliably work at a coffee shop for five hours. Not even doing that much other than some music, coding, and a few compiles of golang code. My Apple friends get 12+ hrs of battery life. I really wish Lenovo+Fedora or whoever would get together and make that possible.

try one of the newer amd or intel (TSMC-made) CPUs. its pretty much the same. keep in mind the battery size too. mbp has a huge and very heavy battery (the mbp is super heavy)

HP has Ubuntu-certified strix halo machines for example.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#217

Post by FirmwareBurner »

munchlax wrote: post #212

I can build myself a new amd64 box for just under €200. Under €100 with used parts. Some older Dell and Lenovo laptops even work with coreboot. An Airbook sets me back €1000, enough to buy a used car, and AFAICT is much more difficult to get fully working Linux on than my €200 amd64 build. Why hasn't apple caught up?

>I can build myself a new amd64 box for just under €200

Precisely because of that they haven't caught up. They don't want to compete in the PC race to them bottom that nearly bankrupted them in the 90s before they invented the iPod.

Apple got rich by creating its own markets.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#218

Post by yaro330 »

nicolaslem wrote: post #148
kangs wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes and no. i have macbook pro m4 and a zbook g1a (ai max 395+ ie strix halo) In day to day usage the strix halo is significantly faster, and especially when large context LLM and games are used - but also typical stuff like Lightroom (gpu heavy) etc. on the flip side the m4 battery life is significantly longer (but also the mpb is approx 1/4 heavier) for what its worth i also have a t14 with a snapdragon X elite and…

I also have a Strix Halo zbook G1A and I am quite disappointed in the idle power consumption as it hovers around 8W. Adding to that, it is very picky about which power brick it accepts (not every 140W PD compliant works) and the one that comes with the laptop is bulky and heavy. I am used to plugging my laptop into whatever USB-C PD adapter is around, down to 20W phone chargers. Having the zbook refuse to charge on t…

> Adding to that, it is very picky about which power brick it accepts (not every 140W PD compliant works) and the one that comes with the laptop is bulky and heavy. I am used to plugging my laptop into whatever USB-C PD adapter is around, down to 20W phone chargers. Having the zbook refuse to charge on them is a big downgrade for

It's Dell, they are probably not actually using PD3.1 to achieve the 140w mark, instead they are prolly using PD3.0 extension and shove 20v7a into the laptop. I can't find any info, but you can check on the charger.

If it lists 28V then it's 3.1, else 3.0. If it's 3.1 you can get a Baseus PowerMega 140W PD3.1, seems like a reeeeally solid charger from my limited use.

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#219

Post by [deleted] »

fafhnir wrote: post #201

I have the same experience here with my MacBook Air M1 from 2020 with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD. After three years, I upgraded to a MacBook Pro with M3 Pro, 36GB of RAM, and 2TB of storage. I use this as my main machine with 2 displays attached via a TB4 dock. I'm working in IT and I get all new machines for our company over my desk to check them, and I observed the exact same points as the OP. The new machines are eith…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why hasn't x86 caught up with Apple M series?

#220

Post by gettingoverit »

> might be my Linux setup being inefficient

Given that videos spin up those coolers, there is actually a problem with your GPU setup on Linux, and I expect there'd be an improvement if you managed to fix it.

Another thing is that Chrome on Linux tends to consume exorbitant amount of power with all the background processes, inefficient rendering and disk IO, so updating it to one of the latest versions and enabling "memory saving" might help a lot.

Switching to another scheduler, reducing interrupt rate etc. probably help too.

Linux on my current laptop reduced battery time x12 compared to Windows, and a bunch of optimizations like that managed to improve the situation to something like x6, i.e. it's still very bad.

> Is x86 just not able to keep up with the ARM architecture?

Yes and no. x86 is inherently inefficient, and most of the progress over last two decades was about offloading computations to some more advanced and efficient coprocessors. That's how we got GPUs, DMA on M.2 and Ethernet controllers.

That said, it's unlikely that x86 specifically is what wastes your battery. I would rather blame Linux, suspect its CPU frequency/power drivers are misbehaving on some CPUs, and unfortunately have no idea how to fix it.

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