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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
211–220 of 1001 posts
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#212I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…
> However! I will say that this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health. Doing something you don't like, care about, or believe in for decades long periods of time can really mess with your sense of self worth and happiness in life.
Agree with everything you wrote except this part. I have worked jobs where I truly believed in the mission, worked hard, was paid a lot, achieved great things and was overall very satisfied. I was also massively burned out by the end of it.
On the other hand I have had stretches where I was disillusioned and disconnected from work and was completely coasting, so exactly in the situation the OP describes. I had zero stress at work and used to leave at 5pm sharp, had lots more time for family and friends, picked up some great hobbies, did a lot more weekend trips and extended travel, and my mental health and happiness could not be better because of it.
Ultimately some people derive their life's purpose from their jobs, while to others it is just a necessary annoyance for making money. There's no single "correct" approach to this.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#213I’ve never lied about it. I work to understand the user-facing and technical requirements, and I turn in a satisfactory implementation, usually on time.
Once in a while this entails working late, or on a Saturday. The vast majority of the time it means showing up for the stand up and sticking around for 3-4 hours. I prefer not to work anywhere where anyone is taking any notice of when I’m at my desk or not.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#214Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…
The alternative is to embrace minimalism / the FIRE lifestyle and hopefully skate by long enough to not have to work by the time the company folds and live off of investments -> then into retirement).
I think most "underwork" on the job is a motivational issue and stems from one of a few overlapping reasons: 1) No way to promotion/advancement (dead end job) 2) Overqualified and bored 3) Unclear goals, no feedback, and/or undiagnosed ADHD. 4) None or negative social value to the job - for example selling shady financial products to seniors (so that slacking becomes a social good)
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#215> No one has ever called me out on this
Have you ever been stuck debugging something, maybe even something that should be simple, for days at a time?
I know I have.
I think because, in the course of actual work, we encounter these kinds of things and because of innate social reasons, yes, you're unlikely to be called out.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#216> Do people regularly run into coworkers like me during their career and simply ignore it because they find it too awkward to criticize them? Yes exactly this, especially at larger companies. I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... They find a way to make any task take forever... If it was a smaller company they would be called out, but at my [very, very] large company - its very hard to get f…
> I know a few of those developers, and they sit right near me... In fact, this is so common that I can name the exact people at several jobs I've had. And I could mention them to my coworkers and they'd know exactly what these people's reputation are. Our feeling toward them is a mix of being impressed and being embarrassed. Impressed because there's something to be said for someone who works the system to their adv…
> Embarrassed because it's hard to understand how they couldn't be more ambitious at work.
Boss makes a dollar, I make a dime. That's why I'm poopin' on company time.
Most companies don't meaningfully incentivize ambition. At most companies, even tech companies, if you save them a million dollars you'll be lucky to get a used Red Lobster gift card. If companies want ambition they should incentivize it rather than only rewarding the corporate ladder climbing sociopaths.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#217I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…
> this way of working and living comes with some significant hazard to your mental health I can relate to that. I used to work not more than it was required for being perceived as a very productive person (10-15 hours / week), but at some point I couldn't stand it. I co-founded a startup and for first two years I easily crossed 60 hours/week on average, yet I was much happier and had more energy than previously. Of c…
60 hour workweeks are absolutely sustainable?
Desirable maybe not, but I’ve known lots of people who have worked ten hours a day six days a week. Especially if they don’t have other commitments.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
At Microsoft at least that wasn't my experience at all. I knew several people there who hadn't done any real productive work for the last 7-10 years, probably longer.
I've been in Azure and GCP. IDK how anyone would get away with it. You constantly have customer issues, people from other teams pinging you, needing help with something. I don't see how it would be possible just to do nothing and survive. Maybe in some team that is further removed from customers?
Not to disagree with your experience at Azure and GCP, but the grandparent specifically mentioned their parent entities: Microsoft and Google, each of which have several divisions apart from their respective cloud divisions.
Keep in mind that Azure and GCP are playing catch up to AWS, so they necessarily have to run a tight ship in order to close AWS’ lead.
So its possible for laxity to exist in other divisions in a large company, as long as the money keeps rolling in, e.g. the Windows division at Microsoft (which still enjoys a good share of the desktop market) and the Search division at Google (which still enjoys a good share of the search market).
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#219You aren't a 10X developer whose laziness makes you a 1X developer. You're a 1X developer period. 10X developers wouldn't be on HN posting about how they coast and pretend, they would be doing literally 10X the coding as you (and me too).
The reality is this: spend your attention wisely and don't worry about anything else. Attention is the real value of time. The more attention you can pay to producing good things, the more benefits you'll create. The more attention you pay to frivolity, to mindless consumption, the less positive impact society will feel from your existence.
Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?
#220Managers are supposed to weed out people that slack off enough to slow delivery and cause headaches for their peers.
I do know some engineers who seem to coast or just be unhappy 70% of the time, but the 30% where they show up is insanely valuable. Those people can stay in my org.
What I really hate is the guy doing what the OP is doing while his colleagues are working long days and weekends picking up the slack. That's just being an antisocial leech, and that person is toxic to a team and to morale.