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Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

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Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#211
TBH, you sound pretty toxic yourself. Exclusionary to "white dudes" and lots of whining about how other people arn't catering to you.

If you don't like it, you could always start your own company. Then you'd be the boss and can set the culture. But that would require personal responsibility. It's a lot easier to just blame "white guys" for not creating a culture just for your ever so special life.

Might sound harsh, but try some self-reflection, and try to stop being such a victim.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#212
post #171
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is extremely common for something like "women-friendly policies" to be code for "we talk a good game, so shut the fuck up and quit making us look bad, you whiny bitch." I do not have a tech job, but I have taken classes on things like social psychology. Attempts to address sexism, racism, etc often suffers from a problem of tokenism. This is not just the problem described in Dedeh Howard's "Black Mirror" of "We al…

Tokenism is definitely an ass. I happen to come with a baggage of other labels (minority within minority within minority...) and even in so-called open environments, I often find myself on this super awkward scale: - Ignored (only for the same idea to be suggested by another, receiving whoop-whoop, pat on the back) - Disdained (do your job yeah but you're not supposed to do it so well it makes your colleagues inferio…

"other labels (minority within minority within minority..."

Your description has me curious and sympathetic. What is a "minority within a minority within a minority" in your case?

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#213
post #56

Disclaimer: I am women, but never stepped the foot in CA. Geography matters. I see ping pong tables and free beer as a red flag of sorts and seek workplace that is more formal. The idea is that the less it attempts to be personal/cool/cultural the less personal things (e.g. gender or peoples attitudes/biases or who-likes-who) matters and the more actual work matters. I have no stats to support this, just my guess and…

Interesting test case: the military has no free beer and I've seen precious few ping pong tables. Yet Marines United is a thing.

The military also shaves everyone's hair the first day then yells, drives you like a dog, and puts them in the best physical shape of their life for the first two months after they join.

Somehow how I think a drill sergeant is inappropriate as a job role in a software development shop. But every other Tuesday were I work we get a visit from the Grill Sergeant. Mmmm... Ribs and Brisket.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#214
post #95

how do you know the 'great culture' is for assumedly white dudes (what does that mean even, white dude is not some singular set of human traits)? I'm female, I've been the first and the only woman on teams. I don't give a crap about it. I do my job and expect my colleagues to do the same. Any place with crap culture is crap culture for almost everyone, no matter gender-identity or race. I look for places where the em…

> Any place with crap culture is crap culture for almost everyone, no matter gender-identity or race. I can't agree with you. If you work for a company that makes negative assumptions about you because of your gender/race, you'll have a worse experience than when they make positive assumptions. It's about things like when you bring up an idea in a meeting, and it's totally ignored, and the guy across the table brings…

> If you work for a company that makes negative assumptions about you because of your gender/race, you'll have a worse experience than when they make positive assumptions.

What's wrong with just not making any assumptions based on gender and race?

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#215
post #125
post #114

I look for existing diversity, and of underrepresented minorities not just gender diversity (IME this is often a better signal.) Especially in upper levels: the % of Software Engineer 1s matters a lot less than the % of architects and tech leads. Second (and I kind of hate to give this one away), I ask "what do you sacrifice when recruiting to ensure diversity?" The answer should be either "it takes us longer to recr…

Oh, the other thing is that what you are looking for will change over the course of your career. Early on, you need to work with people who can effectively mentor you. Your direct boss and the technical leaders on your team will matter, but the rest of the company can be kind of terrible and it will probably be fine. Once you start moving into technical leadership or architect roles, the additional work you probably…

Relatedly, the strategies I've used also change over time.

At this point in my career, I rely more on preemptive screening by employers. I list my talks about Cyborg Feminism and Feminist Software Development on my resume, along with my talk at Lesbians Who Tech on why imposter syndrome is a rational reaction to a lack of reliable feedback. I posted a blog post about how the decline of women in computer science is related to the rise of Internet culture and the disparate treatment experienced there. I regularly tweet about racism and sexism in tech. In my personal statement last time I was looking I said explicitly I was looking for an "intersectionally-feminist team".

This isn't a technique I would have used when I was starting out and needed Any Job. Now that I have a skill set in high demand, though, when people who don't want me around rule themselves out it just saves both of us time. And on the flip side, when a founder is excited that I name-drop Donna Haraway, it's always at least going to be a fun conversation.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free beer is an attractor only to completely stupid people. Stupid, on multiple fronts. Firstly, even if you like beer, it's bad for your health to have daily, unfettered access to it. Secondly, it's cheap. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together puts an objective dollar value on these sorts of free perks. A beer is worth so many dollars; how many a week of them could you reasonably enjoy? You'd be stupid to be p…

> Firstly, even if you like beer, it's bad for your health to have daily, unfettered access to it. Only if you lack the maturity and self control to handle that. In my home, I have daily, unfettered access to bourbon, gin, beer, wine, tequila, and more. And, yet I am as healthy as I have ever been. Because I'm an adult and don't choose to get wasted every day simply because I can.

Also: it's not hard to imagine that people who do lack that maturity and self-control would also be more likely than the average person to be drawn to that type of workplace.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free beer is an attractor only to completely stupid people. Stupid, on multiple fronts. Firstly, even if you like beer, it's bad for your health to have daily, unfettered access to it. Secondly, it's cheap. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together puts an objective dollar value on these sorts of free perks. A beer is worth so many dollars; how many a week of them could you reasonably enjoy? You'd be stupid to be p…

> Firstly, even if you like beer, it's bad for your health to have daily, unfettered access to it. Only if you lack the maturity and self control to handle that. In my home, I have daily, unfettered access to bourbon, gin, beer, wine, tequila, and more. And, yet I am as healthy as I have ever been. Because I'm an adult and don't choose to get wasted every day simply because I can.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#218
post #209

The Two Travelers and the Farmer North America A traveler came upon an old farmer hoeing in his field beside the road. Eager to rest his feet, the wanderer hailed the countryman, who seemed happy enough to straighten his back and talk for a moment. "What sort of people live in the next town?" asked the stranger. "What were the people like where you've come from?" replied the farmer, answering the question with anothe…

This parable is designed to illustrate the difference in outcomes based on perception.

Gender and racial bias in tech are not based solely on individual perception but also behaviors of individuals within a culture.

How can this parable be seen as addressing OP's question?

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#219
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting test case: the military has no free beer and I've seen precious few ping pong tables. Yet Marines United is a thing.

The military also shaves everyone's hair the first day then yells, drives you like a dog, and puts them in the best physical shape of their life for the first two months after they join. Somehow how I think a drill sergeant is inappropriate as a job role in a software development shop. But every other Tuesday were I work we get a visit from the Grill Sergeant. Mmmm... Ribs and Brisket.

I think you misunderstand military culture. Basic training is about preparing you to survive battle. The reason skin color matters less to the military is because they are "blood brothers" -- they have each other's back and keep each other alive, which is an effective means to help people stop sweating the small stuff, like how much melanin the skin of various members contains.

Re: Ask HN: Women in tech, how do you find non-toxic work environments?

#220
post #95

how do you know the 'great culture' is for assumedly white dudes (what does that mean even, white dude is not some singular set of human traits)? I'm female, I've been the first and the only woman on teams. I don't give a crap about it. I do my job and expect my colleagues to do the same. Any place with crap culture is crap culture for almost everyone, no matter gender-identity or race. I look for places where the em…

> Any place with crap culture is crap culture for almost everyone, no matter gender-identity or race. I can't agree with you. If you work for a company that makes negative assumptions about you because of your gender/race, you'll have a worse experience than when they make positive assumptions. It's about things like when you bring up an idea in a meeting, and it's totally ignored, and the guy across the table brings…

"you'll have a worse experience than when they make positive assumptions."

Unless they're Asian and they expect them to outperform your peers because "Asians are just raised to pay attention in school, get good grades, and just be smart." Then, that person starts underperforming since they're average, not geniuses. Then the pressure or stress builds with a portion burning out or commiting suicide.

The Asian example of overly-positive expectations was one they gave us in diversity class I took. Quite common. So, both forms of bias can be really bad.

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