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Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

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Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#211

Post by giarc »

flashman wrote: post #201
jboggan wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My friend is a Ferrari mechanic and he says the panel gap and fitment is atrocious, he claims that part of the construction is mostly done by unskilled labor. The money, time, and care go into the design, suspension, engine, interior, etc. He has a lot of stories about large panel gaps, off-center screw holes on body panels, terrible fitment and lots of refurbishing needed even with a brand-new Ferrari.

Enzo Ferrari once said, "I don't care if the door gaps are straight. When the driver steps on the gas I want him to shit his pants." So I don't accept the parent commenter's idea that manufacturing tolerances are relevant to styling. It's economics and marketing, in my opinion. Car manufacturers find it hard enough to make money that I don't see them mass manufacturing risky designs that only a small number of people…

To be fair, Enzo died almost 3 decades ago. A lot has likely changed at Ferrari in time since he was involved in the day to day operations.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#212

Post by giarc »

sokoloff wrote: post #95
ricardobeat wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this still true nowadays with almost entirely automated manufacturing? If you look at modern car models, even the cheapest ones have way more "shapes at odd angles" than sports cars.

Often, those panel intersections look like shit. I have a Nissan LEAF and have owned it since new (so I know it's never been hit). Looking at the panel fit between the rear bumpers and the quarter panels, that car looks worse than some cars I've seen that have been hit.

Tesla apparently has very poor fit and finish.

>Tesla forums are littered with complaints about fit and finish. Have a look at the .pdf in this thread, which shows bad sealing, poor parts fitment and even rust on the rear seat brackets. [0]

And that is for the Model X, from what I've heard, the Model S was even worse.

http://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-x-is-suffering-from-qual...

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#213

Post by IgorPartola »

coev wrote: post #195
IgorPartola wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good answer. Hundai comes to mind as a brand that puts overly slick bodies on underpowered cars. It looks silly. And yes there is the Genesis, but that car is not cheap. What would be fun is if manufacturers took more liberties with design. I loved my Scion xB because it was "ugly beautiful" and also very functional. I really like the new Civic: aggressive yet understated. More of this would be really nice.…

The Scion brand was discontinued last year.

Nooo!

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#214

Post by TylerE »

jayjay71 wrote: post #208
TylerE wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We buy way way way more luxury cars and suvs than you do. These are not considered vehicles for the wealthy either. Small cars do not really sell here. (For reference, I actually bought a new VW Golf R about 2 weeks ago... for roughly $41,000, just as a single data point).

How much do you like the Golf R? Is the 4WD worth the price increase over the GTI?

Love it.

In my case, the price premium isn't really that much to even think of, as I would have been going with a fully loaded GTI, which would have sticked around $35k or so, so it's not even _that_ much of a price bump.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#216

Post by DanieI »

kls wrote: post #210
giarc wrote: post #38

I can offer an opinion not yet seen in this thread. It comes down to tolerances. My father works for GM as a tool and die maker. He says that GM is obsessed with tolerances in their panels. This means that the gap between the hood and front quarter panel is the same near the windshield as it is near the headlights. Same goes for all other areas of the car. It's hard to get right. If you start to get more complex desi…

I don't know about tolerances but it is a viable argument. What I do know is that almost all of your super-cars are built using some form of composite material, Carbon Fiber and Kevlar being the two big ones. These material extremely mold-able but also prohibitively expensive when it comes to mass produced cars.

Why can't they be made of fiberglass like Corvettes?

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#217

Post by justin66 »

semi-extrinsic wrote: post #44
teolemon wrote: post #28

So where does the Tesla Model 3 fit in ? https://www.tesla.com/model3

What do you mean? It's not as if the Model 3 offers anything near Ferrari-level design nor performance. In my (admittedly biased, like anyone's) opinion, designwise it's very similar to the Mazda 3 4-door sedan: https://www.mazdausa.com/vehicles/mazda3-sedan And before you quote 0-60 times: they are a tiny, tiny part of performance; if you look at actual racetrack performance, even the Model S P100D is miles behind a…

> And before you quote 0-60 times: they are a tiny, tiny part of performance; if you look at actual racetrack performance

Benchmarking has been on my mind this morning. I think you're pretty clearly off base here with your "tiny, tiny part of performance" comment.

0-60 times roughly reflect what people will see when they're getting on to the freeway. It's a useful exercise to contemplate how often people get on to the freeway and how often they drive around Nürburgring, or any race track.

This point pretty much holds true even among sports car owners. Guys who track their cars are very much an exception. (and for the most common case of that, drag racing, the Tesla you were putting down actually performs quite well)

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#219

Post by slantaclaus »

Hyundai does this to an extent making some of their models look kind of like Bentleys. Ford has done this somewhat making some of their models look like Aston Martins. The one thing missing in this is the removal of the "Hyundai" and "Ford" logos...

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#220

Post by kls »

DanieI wrote: post #216
kls wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about tolerances but it is a viable argument. What I do know is that almost all of your super-cars are built using some form of composite material, Carbon Fiber and Kevlar being the two big ones. These material extremely mold-able but also prohibitively expensive when it comes to mass produced cars.

Why can't they be made of fiberglass like Corvettes?

It's still more labor intensive. You can stamp metal, any kind of composite has to be laid in a mold in several steps and then infused with resin (the resin is a big part of the cost). Further one the part is finished it has to be trimmed out usually with grinders and sanders. Even with fiberglass the cost of production is going to be higher than the equivalent steel, aluminum or plastic part.
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