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Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#201

Post by ars »

billjings wrote: post #132

As described, it is a fair ways away from what RealPage is doing. Specifically: * RealPage sells raising rents, not just market info. * RealPage pressures clients into taking their higher rents. * RealPage also pressure clients to refuse to rent at lower rates for their own narrow economic interest - in other words, they actively seek to circumvent competitive pressure to keep rents high. (edit: to clarify, I mean th…

Yah, that's the main difference: RealPage pressured landlords (i.e. tracked then) if they did not raise rents based on its recommendations.

If they had limited themselves to simply reporting the numbers, and letting landlords make their own decisions they would probably be legal.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#202

Post by swampthing »

vasco wrote: post #148
swampthing wrote: post #137

I have to say I am pretty surprised to see the negative sentiments toward Pave and salary benchmarking data in general here. Why is the assumption that salaries would always be lower given this data? It seems just as likely to inform companies that what they had in mind is below market or that they are under-compensating someone in light of market changes.

A company doesn't need to know they are under compensating for a role from a third party. They'll find out by the quality and number of applicants pretty fast. I've seen this in practice directly when we couldn't hire for certain roles, raised the range, filled the spots. On the other hand, to know that other companies are paying lower and still able to deliver roughly the same work is harder unless you know how much…

I have to disagree. If you're not getting quality applicants, how do you know if that's because of your salary range, the default applicant pool, or something idiosyncratic to your company?

If you're a new startup founder, you don't always have a good sense of what the default applicant pool should look like. You might have a sense of what quality looks like but how would you know without recruiting experience what the mix of quality to non-quality applicants is supposed to be? There are many reasons why you might not be getting the number of quality applicants you want, and compensation is just one of them. Salary benchmarking data helps eliminate that as a possible cause.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#203

Post by cscurmudgeon »

Nevermark wrote: post #119
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this logic, employees who share their salary publicly also contribute to wage fixing.

If it’s public there is no information asymmetry. There is no fixing.

How?

Information symmetry doesn't prevent fixing. E.g., rents are all public information.

If it is public, won't employers still have access to the salary ranges for free? The very thing Pave is giving them at a cost?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#204

Post by Retric »

danielmarkbruce wrote: post #195
Retric wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The limit on pay is the amount of money they can budget to the position not what other people are paying.

And how do they arrive at the budgeted number? Lots of companies want to ensure they are paying a sufficiently high number to get sufficiently capable employees in a competitive market. While many (including me) find things like Pave gross, it's not a one way street, they can push wages up.

You’re thinking of the actual budget for a position not what a company could in theory budget.

A small businesses owner who pays themselves whatever is left over after expenses doesn’t care about what other companies pay, the company only has so much money. Apple could increase salaries up to the point where they make zero profit, but the goal is profit maximization not salary maximization.

It’s fundamentally the attempt to limit salaries that causes companies to look at the overall market.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#205

Post by nsxwolf »

Panini_Jones wrote: post #147
atrettel wrote: post #115

I have never heard of Pave before, but this just sounds like yet another copy of Equifax's "The Work Number" [1]. Basically, HR at many companies gives your salary and employment history data to Equifax, who then sells access to the information to certain parties with supposed need to access it, including potential and current employers and creditors. This report is likely one of the most invasive consumer files out…

As a datapoint for how I've seen this used in the real world, I've spoken to startups who will defer to Pave regarding how much they'll offer to pay. The startup I spoke to said 'We pay you the 85th percentile for your YOE and role based on Pave data'.

Then I want 99th.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#206

Post by swampthing »

stray wrote: post #141
swampthing wrote: post #137

I have to say I am pretty surprised to see the negative sentiments toward Pave and salary benchmarking data in general here. Why is the assumption that salaries would always be lower given this data? It seems just as likely to inform companies that what they had in mind is below market or that they are under-compensating someone in light of market changes.

Obviously, this sort of information would always be used for good.

Because information has to be used for good or bad and never both?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#207

Post by AlchemistCamp »

zelphirkalt wrote: post #46

Well, I wouldn't mind getting my wage fixed, if that works both ways, down _and up_, because then I would be guaranteed to never earn less than average for my skill and experience. Assuming, that those things of course factor into the averaging. Person X with experience Y in position Z. However, something tells me, that there is a tendency towards the downwards direction and none towards wage increase. (Background: I…

What stops senior devs in Germany from remote contracting for foreign companies that pay better?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#208

Post by warkdarrior »

Havoc wrote: post #150
santiagobasulto wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which makes total sense for consumers as well. If the startup succeeds is because consumers are finding value in it. Uber is the best example. Uber is ilegal only in countries with deep corruption where taxi unions can make legislators ignore their constituents. Uber (and any other car sharing app) is the best solution for me as a consumer compared to the traditional old school taxi service.

> Which makes total sense for consumers as well. Kinda. Often this casual law breaking isn’t entirely victimless even if it benefits both consumer and the startup. I think Schmidt was talking about using content to train models. So artists getting short end of stick. Or Airbnb causing locals getting prices out or whatever. There is certainly some dodgy protectionism happening of the sort you describe but there are al…

As a user of GenAI, I get to create and save drawings in the style of any artist I like, without having to pay the artist $$$$. This is important to me because I like certain styles, but do not care for an original drawing nor have the money to pay for such.

And the externalities introduced here are not borne by all of society, but only by a small number of people (How many important artists are there? 10,000? 100,000?). Just like horse-and-buggy drivers were affected by automobiles, while the vast majority of people benefited from automobiles.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#209

Post by dsr_ »

iav wrote: post #189
wing-_-nuts wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I downloaded a personal report from the work number website and found to my horror that my employer was reporting every. single. paystub. gross and net, to equifax. That felt like a huge breach of privacy. Given that equifax had already proven incompetent at keeping my data secure, I immediately sent HR a request to stop sending my supposedly 'confidential' pay info. They politely told me to kick rocks, so I went on…

I am an investor in equifax. Let me clear up a misconception on where the data comes from. Half the data comes from large enterprise customers, who “sell” the data in exchange for Equifax doing I-9 verification for free. The other half comes from 39 payroll companies. Every single payroll company except for Rippling and Gusto sell paystub data to Euifax. (Rippling will start next year). Those are exclusive revenue sh…

You make an excellent argument here for tight regulation of the industry.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#210

Post by swampthing »

MathMonkeyMan wrote: post #142
swampthing wrote: post #137

I have to say I am pretty surprised to see the negative sentiments toward Pave and salary benchmarking data in general here. Why is the assumption that salaries would always be lower given this data? It seems just as likely to inform companies that what they had in mind is below market or that they are under-compensating someone in light of market changes.

I've never run a company and probably have a chip on my shoulder, but I also think that it's a reasonable assumption that most employers want to pay as little as possible.

I guess my point is that without some sort of sense of the market, whether through Pave or something else, the motivation to pay as little as possible may lead some employers to have lower salary ranges than they would otherwise.
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