Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices) • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#201

Post by sizzle » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 7:52 AM UTC

lokar wrote: post #7

A quick web search finds some answers. eg https://www.spigglelaw.com/employment-blog/employers-affirma... """ Title VII prohibits employers from making employment decisions because of an individual’s skin color, national origin, sex, religion, or race. Therefore, it is illegal to give an applicant an advantage solely because of the applicant’s race. However, this is not always the case. Under United Steelworkers of A…

Are you a lawyer or paralegal? How did you land on the specific cases? Are they cherry picked or how do we know if there is other cases that are newer and set different precedents? I’m honestly curious, I know paralegals will go into some database and search for case law to cite like you did and then build the case arguments with a lawyer.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#202

Post by sizzle » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 8:01 AM UTC

ridaj wrote: post #189

NoImmatureAdHom wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the problem...distorting employment markets makes the stereotypes TRUE! Say you have a software engineering team, and it's nine men and one woman, and it's that way because the pool you hire out if is 9:1, and you only hire from the top decile. If someone decrees that Thou Shalt Hire Women, you certainly can...it's just that the candidates you get will be less than in the top decile. If you go as far…

Not true when the problem is outreach, eg companies that rely too much on existing employees' alumni and social networks to recruit. I know of some people from historically underrepresented backgrounds who'd never have been hired where they are now without active outreach on the recruiters' part, and they were definitely in the top decile

If these individuals were top decile, why weren’t they gunning it for top companies/salaries to begin with? Why do they need to be reached out to if they have the talent? It has been a STEM job seekers market for a while now.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#203

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 8:21 AM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #56

It’s shocking to me how much the courts and executive branch have hollowed out the Civil Rights Act. > It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or natio…

Typical red tape bureaucracy where some people who propose they know better and believe they are to decide who discriminates against whom.

The last 20 years civil liberties were made into a joke with anti-terror legislation. Some overextended bureaucrats believe they can counter these self-imposed developments by being the savior of womanhood, but nobody would propose discrimination in jobs that aren't prestigious. It is a complete paper tiger an lawfare. I fully believe judges will make decisions against the letter of the law, they are a suboptimal safeguard for civil liberties by now. They just legislate an exception and these clauses suddenly have no values anymore. Some people also thought humanism must be improved by making sex and race an issue again.

Companies might like to comply so that nobody looks closer at their business models.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#204

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 8:29 AM UTC

schwartzworld wrote: post #16

IMO the right way to improve DEI outcomes is to reach outside traditional recruitment pools. My last job spent months talking about DEI only to have a similar outcome to yours, just telling HR to hire more women and POC to senior roles. But it doesn't do anything for representation to scramble over the handful of "diverse" senior+ candidates that already exist. Ultimately improving diversity in tech is going to requi…

That would be discrimination if there are people that have the qualifications and want to apply them.

Where is the goal of DIE reached? Is there are limit when "discrimination" is gone? A certain percentage that needs to be reached? I would be completely surprised if that were the case and I believe this will only end in a bureaucratic hell hole.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#205

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 8:34 AM UTC

raincom wrote: post #167

giantg2 wrote: post #73

"must be female" Yes? It's illegal. This instruction removes the chance of any other member type of that protected class from being hired. You can report it to the NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or your state AG. You'll have to document everything while being careful not to break any recording/privacy laws. Not sure anything will really be done. Probably just bring hardship on yourself.

Don't report to NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or to the state AG. They will leak to your HR, and ruin your career. NLRB, FBI/DOJ, AGs are just run by politics du jour.

Not from the US, but then you need to hold these institutions to account. Difficult with a non-informed public about these issues, but it will hit them if you take legal action against them directly. Nobody wants to have dirt on their vests and you have to make some of it stick.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#206

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 8:41 AM UTC

BaronVonSteuben wrote: post #181

If you say anything, it's possible that you would be ending your career. If you do, it is likely that you will be hunting for a new job (and your reputation as a bigot may follow you unless you move to a new industry, and even then depending on how profile your departure is). This has become a common practice in the tech industry, and unquestioned support is expected at a minimum. If you have non-standard hardware on…

At some point you have to stand up for this. Yes, it might cost you, but it is easy to punish companies for their behavior here. SV is still an exception, but I believe companies with such HR policies have a severe problem with drawing talent.

While it might be nice to work with more women for once, such discrimination isn't worth it. People supporting this are terribly afraid of dirt and the best strategy is to turn the most ideological followers against them. That isn't as hard as you might believe as everybody will make mistakes at some point.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#207

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 11:15 AM UTC

mrkurt wrote: post #36

ipnon wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems pretty clear cut to me that if your company hasn't been found guilty of discrimination in the past, then it's illegal for the company to institute "affirmative action." That being said, it's usually the company that receives penalties in these situations, and not individual employees. If a lawsuit is made, and the lawsuit is successful (a big "if" in itself), it's not a guarantee that you will be held person…

> It seems pretty clear cut to me that if your company hasn't been found guilty of discrimination in the past, then it's illegal for the company to institute "affirmative action." That's not what United Steelworkers v. Weber established though. The supreme court said: > An affirmative action plan has to be (1) necessary (2) aiming to correct a statistical imbalance (3) not result in an absolute bar to hiring non-mino…

It is a very stupid judgement as it is. What does statistical imbalance even mean? If you look at the pipeline of computer science the trend is pretty obvious. Same with construction workers really. Meanwhile there are no such rules for teaching which slowly becomes more and more female dominated. A purely statistical analysis might work for jobs that require no qualification at all with severe caveats at least as a lot of them have a skewed gender ratio.

A state should focus on real discrimination. By creating whole bureaucracies around this topic you have created a class of unproductive people that will mainly be driven by self-preservation of their job. You need a bureaucracy to ensure that rules are followed to ensure accessibility for example. But racial and sex quotas should surpass their mandate.

Additionally people in public service rarely have an understanding about competition in the labour market. The mechanisms that pit people against each other by skin color seem to completely elude them. For them it is a matter of representation as if they are dealing with 8 year olds. And even those have a more differentiated view.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#208

Post by raxxorrax » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 11:20 AM UTC

astura wrote: post #148

Hamuko wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, this is permissible only if the purpose is to remediate past failures to hire minority employees in areas that contain few minorities. Women are obviously not a minority in the US, but does this apply if they're a minority in a particular field (such as engineering)?

In this case "minority" refers to the sociological definition, not the mathematical definition.

It should not because sociological definitions are far too indistinct for laws.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#209

Post by chet_dudeman » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 11:51 AM UTC

What would happen if you don't sue this company, but also don't comply with the discriminatory requirement? Would they fire you for not following an illegal order? (As in, interviewing and including male candidates anyway).

"I was just following orders" is not a valid legal defense in this situation. And beyond the legal sphere, what do you know is the right thing to do?

Either way, I'd recommend you preserve whatever documents and notes that you can for the future.

Re: Ask HN: Am I being instructed to do something illegal? (DEI hiring practices)

#210

Post by giantg2 » Mon, Jan 24, 2022, 12:20 PM UTC

raxxorrax wrote: post #205

raincom wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't report to NLRB, FBI/DOJ, or to the state AG. They will leak to your HR, and ruin your career. NLRB, FBI/DOJ, AGs are just run by politics du jour.

Not from the US, but then you need to hold these institutions to account. Difficult with a non-informed public about these issues, but it will hit them if you take legal action against them directly. Nobody wants to have dirt on their vests and you have to make some of it stick.

Not likely. Law enforcement and prosecutors have discretion. They can decide they don't want to pursue something. You can't sue them for deciding not to pursue the company.