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Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

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Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#201

Post by learc83 »

One reason for a senior engineer to move to consulting is that they are tired of being forced to prove that they know how to program every time they switch jobs.

Companies are far too risk averse when hiring, and the amount of hoops you have to jump through is getting more onerous every year.

I'm currently a full-time employee, but I've consulted for about a decade in total. Convincing someone to pay you 2 weeks up front for a contract is significantly less hassle than convincing someone to hire you full-time at a software company.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#202

Post by atonse »

dominotw wrote: post #140
atonse wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But contractors are usually hired for their existing skilsets where they can jump in and start contributing immediately. So you end up doing similar projects. That's not been the case with our best contractors. Yes, in some cases, they were hired for skillsets they already had. But a couple of them we work with, we were happy to let them learn elixir on company time because they demonstrated solid polyglot skills.…

> But a couple of them we work with, we were happy to let them learn elixir on company time Yes thats what i am saying. Hiring rails devs and letting them learn elixir is no big deal and kind of makes sense. But that not really exciting stuff for senior engineers. Senior engineers want to learn new domains like sales, learn leadership skills, have a say in product direction ect. That to me is exciting stuff, not lear…

I think the key there is the new domain/language.

One of the contractors was a rails dev, the other one was actually just a polyglot, although we had hired him for Ember.js help.

But the project is also a high impact, high stress, and challenging project (COVID vaccination software) so yes the domain, level of challenge, and impact helps tremendously to stand out.

As a tech exec and senior engineer myself, I find it highly appealing to do contract work mainly because there are many options/opportunities, and the ability to take a gap wherever you want. That's why I've had my own company for roughly 12 years.

I do think it'll remain that way for the foreseeable future. Many of the smartest people I know are happy to remain contractors because of the flexibility.

I will say though, that I would never do this without Obamacare (in the US). If not for that, I would be "stuck" in a W-2 job just so I could insure my family. (honestly not trying to pass judgment on people who have 9-5 jobs, I'm just not wired for climbing the corporate ladder, etc)

Which is why I always say, supporting Medicare for All is (ironically) one of the most pro-business moves we could make. It will unleash entrepreneurial spirit unlike anything we've ever seen in the US. The number of 1-2 person businesses will explode. All the talent that's stuck at large employers so they can get those health benefits for their families (even though, thanks to Obamacare, you really don't need to anymore) will get liberated.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#203

Post by kwdc »

Nursie wrote: post #81
jameshart wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, it’s not surprising that people who are doing well in the contract market like the contract market. For my part, I literally left the UK in part because the industry there was so geared towards contract work or boutique contract houses as the only viable career path for senior developers. It’s just not for everyone. I like staying with a product team and building and owning stuff; I like companies that build…

I certainly agree that the UK market for senior tech people is very poor, you're right that past a certain point the only way to keep advancing in your career and keep raising your income is to strike out on your own this way. I think it's incredibly short-sighted, but a lot of British businesses treat their software staff as equivalent to generic office inhabitants, rather than highly skilled software practitioners.…

Ah yes, the "highly skilled engineer paid at great expense but not allowed to have an extra pen" problem. Sounds ridiculous until you go and need to almost beg to get a pen.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#204

Post by lowercased »

I've been freelancing for... 10 years, but still don't see as many 'contract' positions vs ads for full-time positions. Even many 'contracts' are expecting fulltime, vs more flexible hours.

They exist, but perhaps are more prevalent in some countries or regions?

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#205

Post by presty »

As a Snr Eng in one of the FAANG, my _personal_ list:

- interesting problem domain (which does not necessarily mean trendy): this is about selling to others why the problem and your company matters

- equity/career progression: (controversial comment incoming...) a strong Snr in a FAANG will most likely be a CTO/VP type of leader in a startup, so provide generous equity

- freedom in terms of decision making: present (business) problems and let people go and tackle them, you don't want to be micromanaging

- freedom in terms of work/life balance: let people manage their schedules, being fully remote, location independent - stuff that most FAANGs will struggle to compete with

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#206

Post by learc83 »

mooreds wrote: post #198

Because money isn't the only thing that matters. Sure, money is great, but it's not the sole determinant of happiness in my experience. Other things that matter: * being part of a team, pulling towards a goal. * stability. Contracting is awesome, but often feast or famine. * work life balance. Yes, as a contractor you control your working hours, but it can be hard to stop working at 5pm too. * benefits (if in the USA…

> ability to explore different areas. When you are a contractor, you are expected to be top notch at what you do. Often that means you don't get to explore new things (except on your own time, which you should do). It's nice to get paid to learn as an employee.

I've also done both over my career, and I haven't noticed much difference in this regard. I've proposed we try out (and they accepted) a different language or technology that I would need to learn numerous times to long-term clients.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#207

Post by DarrenDev »

DarrenDev wrote: post #197

Looking through all the comments, it seems to me that there is a huge differnce between contracting in the US and contracting in Europe, and that that difference is why more European developers favour contracting than US developers do. Contracting in Europe (especially in the UK and Ireland) is largely controlled by recruiting agencies, who act as middle men between companies and contractors. A contractor looking for…

As to the original question of how to attract senior devs away from contracting:

1. Pay them more -- a lot more. See point one above.

2. Give them greenfield projects.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#208

Post by learc83 »

aphextron wrote: post #189
learc83 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>With those 1 or 2 percent raises being a norm almost everywhere, it's hardly a reason to actually leave the company. But it is a reason to leave the company because you can easily get 10% or more switching jobs. >occasional hiring and training costs. Hiring and training costs are enormous, and they aren't occasional when you're talking about software companies with very high turnover. If you're incentivizing job hop…

>But it is a reason to leave the company because you can easily get 10% or more switching jobs. Depends on the company. Mine is 100% remote since COVID, has generous benefits, a strict 9-5 M-F culture, and plenty of interesting work to do as much (or as little) as I have an appetite for. I make maybe 10% under market rate, but it would take at least a 50% raise to get me to leave. That's never happening, as it would…

Right but there's an assumption of all else being equal when making a comparison like that.

Obviously you can get away with paying below market rates if you provide some other benefits to make up for it.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#209

Post by LanceH »

HumblyTossed wrote: post #87

I know this doesn't directly answer your question, but here is why the company I work for currently is able to keep me. 1. Interesting work [0]. My day to day is not a slog. I find it challenging and stimulating. 2. I get to the freedom to make decisions. My manager tells me, "I know you have this, so just do it." If I fail (we all do occasionally. Some things just don't work), they don't let the bus hit me. We figur…

A big one I have to add is time off. I've rejected a lot of companies that tell me, "All new employees start with two weeks off per year." Yea, I'm sure the new CFO starts with 2 weeks vacation, too. I've been doing this for 25 years, and if you offer me two weeks, we're done.

Re: Ask HN: How to attract perm Snr Engs when the contract market is so lucrative?

#210

Post by Cederfjard »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #88
Cederfjard wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Agile is a time stuck and time waster How do you prefer to organize larger software development efforts that have to be coordinated with other business processes?

Anything that treats software development as an iterative research and development process, lets engineers self-organize, respects their time, and respects that time estimate certainty is asymptotic with respect to the time horizon.

If Agile doesn’t achieve those things, which it explicitly is meant to do, are you familiar with any other methodology or set of guidelines that does?
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