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Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

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Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#201

Post by flashman »

jboggan wrote: post #146
giarc wrote: post #38

I can offer an opinion not yet seen in this thread. It comes down to tolerances. My father works for GM as a tool and die maker. He says that GM is obsessed with tolerances in their panels. This means that the gap between the hood and front quarter panel is the same near the windshield as it is near the headlights. Same goes for all other areas of the car. It's hard to get right. If you start to get more complex desi…

My friend is a Ferrari mechanic and he says the panel gap and fitment is atrocious, he claims that part of the construction is mostly done by unskilled labor. The money, time, and care go into the design, suspension, engine, interior, etc. He has a lot of stories about large panel gaps, off-center screw holes on body panels, terrible fitment and lots of refurbishing needed even with a brand-new Ferrari.

Enzo Ferrari once said, "I don't care if the door gaps are straight. When the driver steps on the gas I want him to shit his pants." So I don't accept the parent commenter's idea that manufacturing tolerances are relevant to styling.

It's economics and marketing, in my opinion. Car manufacturers find it hard enough to make money that I don't see them mass manufacturing risky designs that only a small number of people want to drive.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#202

Post by ScottBurson »

sndean wrote: post #182
ScottBurson wrote: post #174

As others have mentioned, there are some. My 1993 Toyota MR2 Turbo [0] bears some resemblance to a Ferrari F355 [1]. As far as models currently on sale go, I think the prize for the best-looking economy car easily goes to the Honda CR-Z [2]. Alas, as they say, its performance can't cover the checks its styling writes, which is probably why sales have been extremely poor. (You can get it with a performance package inc…

> As far as models currently on sale go, I think the prize for the best-looking economy car easily goes to the Honda CR-Z That and the Toyota/Subaru FRS/GT86/BRZ. At least a few times my heart rate has increased a bit seeing those cars at a distance (from the front). Nice to have Honda and Toyota making such good-looking cars

Well, I wouldn't call that an economy car, but with 200hp I suppose it does qualify as underpowered relative to a Ferrari. I agree, it is nice-looking.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#203

Post by vacri »

dver23 wrote: post #19
dagw wrote: post #16

Because at the end of the day the Ferrari (or Porsche or Lamborghini) design is not a very comfortable or practical design for day to day use. The (two) people I know who own Porsche sports cars also own a second car.

Well the old story I've heard is you don't buy on Ferrari, you buy two. One for the shop, one to drive.

An old supervisor of mine was a Jaguar fan, and due to the large amount of time they spend having repairs done: "There's two days when you love your Jag: the day you buy it, and the day you sell it"

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#204

Post by brokenmachine »

jakebaker wrote: post #190
durandal1 wrote: post #113

In the documentary Objectified (recommended!), a BMW designer brings up the point that a car design should express what the car is . If there's a mismatch between the look, and how it feels to drive, it will be rejected by customers.

The counterpoint to this is the "Aston Martin" Ford [1a and 1b] which I think most people would agree looks much better than the Ford design it replaced [2]. It literally steals the design cues from a $100k+ sports car and adapts them to an economy car and it seems to work quite well as a design (admittedly a bit of design plagiarism). [1a] http://autoguide.com.vsassets.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/20... [1b] http://w…

Is that a Mondeo?

edit: oops, the link says it's a Ford Fusion.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#205

Post by pascalxus »

There is a middle class car shaped like a ferrari: The Lotus Elise and even more so, the Alfa Romeo 4C. Now let's see what happens when they do this: No one buys it! Wow. It seems, relatively few people want that. And with such a small number of people, car companies don't have the economies of scale to build those cars.

Car enthusiasts make up a small percentage of the car market, even here in America. People want practical, with a bit of badge.

And there are other really awesomely styled cars: Hyundai Veloster, SLK 55 AMG and I don't see these selling out really fast.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#206

Post by dreamcompiler »

lobster_johnson wrote: post #150
dreamcompiler wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a first-gen Miata. It looked great and handled well but it was quite impractical. No back seat, tiny trunk, and not even a powerful engine to get excited about. Then I moved to snow country where I could only drive it half the year because of its real wheel drive. Now I have a car that looks rather ordinary, has a huge trunk, a real back seat, four wheel drive, and which can easily cruise at 140 mph if I'm stup…

Sure, a small sports car is less practical than a big one. But sports cars exist, so that is irrelevant to the whole question; clearly there are some people who don't want a big, ugly car. By analogy, Asus (and several other brands) now makes laptops that look almost exactly like a MacBook Pro — unibody aluminium enclosure, glass screens and everything — at a tiny fraction of the price. So why won't anyone create a P…

I was trying to answer the question from my perspective but I did a poor job. Impractical cars exist, but they sell in low volumes, so they have to be expensive because the tooling for any car is horrifically expensive -- much more so than for a laptop computer. A cheap 911 clone cannot exist because the body style is too impractical to sell in high volumes.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#207

Post by lobster_johnson »

dreamcompiler wrote: post #206
lobster_johnson wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, a small sports car is less practical than a big one. But sports cars exist, so that is irrelevant to the whole question; clearly there are some people who don't want a big, ugly car. By analogy, Asus (and several other brands) now makes laptops that look almost exactly like a MacBook Pro — unibody aluminium enclosure, glass screens and everything — at a tiny fraction of the price. So why won't anyone create a P…

I was trying to answer the question from my perspective but I did a poor job. Impractical cars exist, but they sell in low volumes, so they have to be expensive because the tooling for any car is horrifically expensive -- much more so than for a laptop computer. A cheap 911 clone cannot exist because the body style is too impractical to sell in high volumes.

How do you know that?

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#208

Post by jayjay71 »

TylerE wrote: post #138
jbmorgado wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but what I meant is what do you consider middle segment for cars in the USA? In EU, a Volkswagen Golf for instance is middle segment, but perhaps in the USA is considered lower segment and therefore the difference.

We buy way way way more luxury cars and suvs than you do. These are not considered vehicles for the wealthy either. Small cars do not really sell here. (For reference, I actually bought a new VW Golf R about 2 weeks ago... for roughly $41,000, just as a single data point).

How much do you like the Golf R? Is the 4WD worth the price increase over the GTI?

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#209

Post by Mikeb85 »

Because it's a terribly inefficient use of space if you have any needs beyond going fast. Most of us drive much, much slower than a Ferrari is capable of, and carry more people and things than a Ferrari can.

Btw, an example of a 'middle class' Ferrari is the Alfa Romeo 4c.

Re: Ask HN: Why aren't there middle class cars shaped like Ferraris?

#210

Post by kls »

giarc wrote: post #38

I can offer an opinion not yet seen in this thread. It comes down to tolerances. My father works for GM as a tool and die maker. He says that GM is obsessed with tolerances in their panels. This means that the gap between the hood and front quarter panel is the same near the windshield as it is near the headlights. Same goes for all other areas of the car. It's hard to get right. If you start to get more complex desi…

I don't know about tolerances but it is a viable argument. What I do know is that almost all of your super-cars are built using some form of composite material, Carbon Fiber and Kevlar being the two big ones. These material extremely mold-able but also prohibitively expensive when it comes to mass produced cars.
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