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Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

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Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#201
Hi,

Definitely go for it. Especially, please have a look at my previous comment in the thread entitled "Sorry, developer bootcamps: I was wrong" :

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11445582

To resume: to my knowledge, the best training to start your journey as an aspiring Software Developer is the one suggested by Founders & Coders :

http://www.foundersandcoders.com/apply/

(Note: Codewars is just so awesome... https://www.codewars.com)

By the way, if you can get into it, I would strongly advise you to apply to FullStack Academy, they seem to have the best teaching around there (at least their students have very high rankings on Codewars) :

http://www.fullstackacademy.com

Good luck :)

Très cordialement / Best Regards,

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#202

PURE INSANITY, even if you are TRULY passionate about it You work at a top 3 tech company. You are in the best place in the world to learn exciting new tech. I'd kill to get a peek at the codebase of a top 3 tech company. Leverage your job as your coding bootcamp. Maybe you can negotiate 1 day/wk for learning CS. If you can, take a sabbatical. If you can't and live in an ethical gray zone, go to a psychologist and ge…

I'm at Facebook, and you already can take a look at our codebase, since many of the most impressive parts of our stack are open-source.

I was mostly referring to tech on the horizon that he seemed interested in like Deep Learning, blockchain, etc.

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#203
Yes you are crazy and Please Don't Do it. I'll try to make the story short so bear with me. Almost 3 years ago I took a Bootcamp Online at Bloc.io, quite recommendable and I was supremely obsessed with learning. I needed to make a fast change in my life knowing that I was going to be unemployed in about 6 months, my wife was pregnant and I had to make a quick jump not to drown. I do not regret it at all, in fact, I greatly appreciate having learned so much with my mentor. You can not imagine how many things I did after investing +90 hours a week for 6 months. I still had to learn on my own for another year testing ideas before I was able to launch a startup that has allowed me to keep a decent income higher than the one I had before. But this scenario is not what I wished for when I started 3 years ago. I did not conceive that learning to code was a permanent and continuous process where you needed concentration and long hours of focus instead of playing with my daughter who is almost 3 years old now. I love writing code, words can't describe what you feel when tests pass and you see it live in production (only to realize a few days later that you were reinventing the wheel and there was a better gem that did it faster and better). I thought this new world was my dreamed land where I could build things without asking anyone for help but that's really the problem. That window I opened 3 years ago showed me that if I continue to develop the way that I did I would spend my life without actually living it as I wanted to. I confess my lines are not that sofisticated, I even consider them quite amateurish, my tests are light, and I guess If I would really want to be a pro developer I would have to invest much more and that sucks because you can't think how many nights I've spent being away from my family because it truly is very absorbing. I do not say that it is bad idea to spend a life in front of a computer but man that is not suited for me.

I can see through your words that your interests are to participate in those great new ideas and to achieve greater things but you can make it happen without that Bootcamp especially without quitting your job. If you decided to attend to a good university it was because you really wanted to leave a dent on the universe. There are cases such as the orchestra director where although he does not play any instrument he must at least learn to play one to understand the essence of music before being able to lead. But in our ecosystem what is rewarded beyond our vision is our ability to execute.I believe that you as a PM have one the most valuable assets because you can take any talented team and give them a vision towards execution, that they will appreciate because people do not know how to execute complex Things step by step the way that you do. Besides that if you give them that strong desire to accomplish excellence that breaks the molds. And that stamina to persevere even in the darkest hours you are set.

If I could go back 3 years in time, I would ask for the refund even if I had to pay something. Instead I would use that money to spend more time observing regular people, maybe participate inside university activities, labs, study groups and invite complete strangers to take espressos or beers with students or teachers and bond with them. Instead of being a solo learner I would encourage myself to be a part of a group. My job would have been to create any initiative with them on the topics I sought were worth it and even if I knew it wouldn't work I would put all my experience to support the implementation of these ideas. I might not knew how to type a line of code but I would have felt more alive to be able to see those ideas become a reality, even if it wasn't 1% my vision, even if if wasn't my code, even if I only was able to sit on a table with just one talented person and be able to keep him motivated and enthusiastic after the first prototype was made and help him with the first sale to come, that would have been enough. Instead of investing in Bootcamps you could interact more with humans, learn more about human behaviors, spend more time with your family or children, travel more to meet with more people and take advantage of the work you have right now to find mentors or talk with your peers about your expectations in those topics that you like to execute instead of being in front of your laptop fighting with your lines of code that someone you work with can do much better in less time.

Finally I have to say it surely was a blessing to become a developer, right no I'm working as CTO/CEO but I 'm about to let go, and I know it's going to be hard, anyways in your current situation where you have much more knowledge and experience, only quit to carry out your ideas but if you definitely want to play don't forget that sooner or later you'll need to delegate and learn to orchestrate and for that you don't need that Bootcamp.

P.S.: Forgive my bad English.

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best software engineers at my company are self-taught.

IMHO, if you are self-taught, have been able to build a portfolio of projects showing your skills with several of the latest technologies, your profile is much more valuable than if you have been to a bootcamp. Going to a bootcamp shows you are just another good student, who can sit in a classroom for 10hours straight in a day, during 12 weeks, and get good marks. When you are self-taught, you show that beyond your n…

This is more or less false. Most bootcamps don't give 'marks'. Most of them are also not lecture based. Instead, they are likely to assess through assignments and/or projects. They help you progressively build towards a solid base of knowledge while you work on building out a portfolio. I would say the accelerated time span is due to curated resources and the immediate feedback loop. Concepts that normally take a week or longer to grok from searching on the web, can be reduced to a few hours at a bootcamp.

You also seem to think attending a bootcamp automatically precludes a student from being able to provide themselves with continuing education.

There are different motivations for people entering a bootcamp and some are looking for that paycheck. But again, that does not necessarily make them a bad SW engineer. And if those people would like to keep their salary, they will learn soon enough that they will not get very far with stale knowledge.

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#205
post #63

I am on a similar path, if with a much lower opportunity cost. I am 37 years old, one failed startup as a founder, a few marketing roles on other modest startups and some years as social project manager on the resume. I decided to quit my last job and study full time to become a developer. Not through a bootcamp, but through cheap or free resources online. I chose freecodecamp.com to go for now. I did an Ask HN too a…

You are conflating "not much support for learning to code" and "not much support for bootcamps". I'm sure everyone here would support you learning to code! Look, teaching yourself programming is not only possible, it's required -- forever. You will never have a job as a programmer where you're not required to learn new things, without anyone else's help, sometimes without even any documentation, and often on tight de…

No, it is not only about bootcamps. People vaguely support "learn to code", but there is no support at all to "change your career to be a software developer" (bootcamp or not).

You can see on this thread and I experienced it also (and I never considered a bootcamp).

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#206
Twice in my career I moved from management to more technical roles. Both were somewhat forced by corporate reorgs and I found both quite difficult. Tech is some sort of meritocratic place and if you want to have an impact you need to contribute on an appropriate level. One of the hardest things in these transitions is to be patient enough with myself and not judging myself too hard for not meeting my expectations.

It took me 2-4 years to get on a level I was ok again with what I contribute in my role (lead architect). In these transitions I had the benefit of solid coding skills from way back plus having worked at a tier-1 corporate lab for a few years. I had the benefit that the company supported me but that came also with constraints on freedom and focus in recovering the skills.

Coding school may give you basic coding skills. The deep knowledge you would need to be a good coder however will take many years to acquire. I would be surprised if someone got to a more senior developer role in less than 4 years and going to architect before 6. Only then you will again be able to shape things. Until then you will have to implement what other - often a lot less qualified product managers have thought up for you to do. Often of the code will be for /dev/null as most projects fail in any case before hitting the user. I sometimes think salaries in tech will always be good as frustration tolerance is never going to be a commodity.

I found product management a very difficult proposition. It can be incredibly hard to add value in that role but then on the other hand it can be one of the most powerful and decisive roles too (Jobs do I need to say more). There is a lot communication and coordination and that can be fun but also can feel void. Shaping from that position takes serious political skills to acquire the necessary power and to wield it.

The way I think about these changes:

- what can you leverage into the new role?

- is there a plan B?

- do you truly like that type of work (tools, processes, travel, challenges, conflicts)?

- do you like to work closely with these type of people?

- what drives you? Long term vision?

- what are your strengths?

- what technical and interpersonal skill you want to learn? Will you learn anything new?

Would I have hired you when I was team lead way back? Iff you showed up with lots of enthusiasm for coding and passed our structured technical interview - maybe into a junior developer role. Willingness and ability to change was a key criteria for me. But I know I probably had to argue both technical staff and HR. I never worried about someone going for my role but maybe with you I would have worried about that on my side.

By all means learn coding. You may however want to give some thought on possible paths, risks and contingencies. Coding - considering your starting point - is certainly one option but comes with a high risk of significantly lower ability to contribute and ultimately benefit from it. Project management may be another. Consulting in the area of requirements may be another.

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Management is becoming more, not less, important. Good management is the number one competitive advantage an enterprise has. Management essentially means running the corporate machine and directing the efforts of its tens or hundreds of thousands of employees. If poorly directed, effort is wasted. As the world is seemingly centralizing into a handful of large corporations, good management is more important than ever…

So, what's good management ? A manager who has strong technical knowledge and experience ? I have seen many managers who know bugger all about the technical stuff, and have zero interest in technical stuff anyway. They are absolutely not inspiring, and are poor leaders. For some reason I don't understand well, these type of managers stay.

Good managers help you navigate the weeds and surface what works. Bad managers claim to know it all and spend their time trying to do your job to set an example vs doing their job of actually managing

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if it makes sense for the OP, but I'll stick up for coding bootcamps as a general concept. I don't agree that most people can just self-study in the same time period and get as effective an education, and I do think that the credential is important. A friend of mine just did a bootcamp -- from a stalled career as a lab technician in which she was making something around $60k/year (in the Bay Area) -- and…

I'm self-taught. I've been interviewing GA bootcamp grads recently and they seem to have learnt very little during the 12 weeks. At most they are comfortable with hard coding css and html. Anything more complex has them stumped.

Really? I find they at least know JavaScript, git and a framework or two. Are you one of those academic interviewers asking questions about stuff people would never use in their jobs?

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best software engineers at my company are self-taught.

IMHO, if you are self-taught, have been able to build a portfolio of projects showing your skills with several of the latest technologies, your profile is much more valuable than if you have been to a bootcamp. Going to a bootcamp shows you are just another good student, who can sit in a classroom for 10hours straight in a day, during 12 weeks, and get good marks. When you are self-taught, you show that beyond your n…

At good bootcamps, most people are already extremely self-taught. I had basically mastered jQuery, Python, and SQL when I went to a bootcamp (Hackreactor) to get better with algorithms and the latest frameworks.

It's really about how much money you have. If you've got significant savings like I did, it makes sense to pay as time becomes more valuable than money in your life plan.

Re: Ask HN: I will quit my job as a PM to join a coding bootcamp. Am I crazy?

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best software engineers at my company are self-taught.

IMHO, if you are self-taught, have been able to build a portfolio of projects showing your skills with several of the latest technologies, your profile is much more valuable than if you have been to a bootcamp. Going to a bootcamp shows you are just another good student, who can sit in a classroom for 10hours straight in a day, during 12 weeks, and get good marks. When you are self-taught, you show that beyond your n…

At good bootcamps, most people are already extremely self-taught. I had basically mastered jQuery, Python, and SQL when I went to a bootcamp (Hackreactor) to get better with algorithms and the latest frameworks.

It's really about how much money you have. If you've got significant savings like I did, it makes sense to pay as time becomes more valuable than money in your life plan.

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