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Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

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Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#21

Post by dbecker »

genwin wrote: post #17
dbecker wrote: post #14

StackOverflow seems to think that these types of questions cause the community to sink to a lower level of discourse. I'd be inclined to disagree, except that the quality of responses their remains the highest I've seen on the internet. So, they appear to know what they are doing. Quora is happy to host this type of question. Quora responses aren't usually as well-informed as SO responses... but I don't find that a c…

Thanks. To me it's simply a matter of whether the question is on-topic for programming. If so, don't lock it for being off-topic. It seems so simple, especially when the question gets 400+ net votes and 50+ responses. They should let their users decide, with their votes, whether a question is off-topic. SO is good, but it could be much better without so many locked on-topic questions. I don't want to ask a question t…

I could be wrong, but I don't think it was closed for off-topic (non-programming). I would guess it was locked for "not having an answer."

They say you should be soliciting answers rather than opinions... and, for better or for worse, that is probably why this was locked.

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#22

Post by mikescar »

genwin wrote: post #15
freditup wrote: post #9

Moderating any online community is extremely difficult. Rules are generally guidelines and not always set in stone. So, this leaves things up to the discretion of moderators. It can be quite difficult to determine if something is or is not within rules. Was this locking a mistake? Probably, but one question locked means nothing. Moderators always have to watch out for 'rules creep' where the rules are stretched just…

Agreed, except I think it's probably indicative of a broad problem on SO (I'm seeing it too much, and I've seen other forums ruined by it). I think what happens is, a mod becomes overly sensitive to controversy (difference of opinion in the answers). Having only one way to end the controversy, they incorrectly declare the question to be off-topic.

This is not an example of a controversial issue.

The consensus for years has been to store a path in the DB to a file resource, and if you store images in the DB you should have a really compelling, edge-case reason to do so.

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#23

Post by foxhop »

viraptor wrote: post #20
foxhop wrote: post #4

I left stack overflow about a year ago when they banned my account for a week for spamming. I posted a similar answer to a few similar question (like 3 honest) and they banned me. I was so outraged I quit the site completely. That being said I thought about building a site to compete, but stackoverflow basically owns the market. I have no way of collecting users like they do.

Just curious - what was your username? I'd like to see the answers.

russellballestrini or foxhop

You cannot delete your account on stackoverflow without writing to the administrators via email. It is a manual process for them,and they don't delete your account they just rename it and prevent you from logging in. The questions do persist. I'm pretty sure they also deleted my "spam" questions when they banned me.

edit: the stack overflow account is the only one they deleted/renamed.

Here are my related accounts:

http://superuser.com/users/28269/russellballestrini

http://serverfault.com/users/27551/russellballestrini

I was active, honest, helpful and used my real name.

on stackoverflow my username was renamed to user221014

or

https://www.google.com/#q=user221014&oq=user221014

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#24

Post by genwin »

phwd wrote: post #16
genwin wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This topic isn't about the age of the SO question. It's about whether the SO mods calling such questions invalid and locking them is ruining SO. The SO mod says it's locked because it's not a good, on-topic question. I don't see how the mod fights to keep the question somewhere, by locking it and calling it an off-topic question.

1. It's not a valid question for Stack Overflow under the current scope . The question was made in 2008. Of course it's a valid question, "Is the sky blue?" is a valid question as well. Doesn't mean it's within scope for Stack Overflow (see more below) 2. The mod took action but all mods took chances putting historical locks on question. There were many questions to clean up. So the mod didn't say squat, it was actio…

I understand the mods there are volunteers, and appreciate that.

On your #2, it seems you're saying the mod has to call it an off-topic question even if he/she is locking it for another reason. If so, then it wouldn't be the mods' fault, it'd be the SO developers'. It's still a path to ruination.

I disagree that a valid on-topic question for SO should be limited to definitely answerable questions (in this case, where a pro or con can be proven). If that's the case they should make that clear in their FAQ; I don't think they do that. While that can be their unwritten rule if they want, it makes SO much less valuable for programming questions for me, because not all programming questions I find valuable are definitely answerable, like the one I referred to. 400+ people (on net) found that question to be valuable. I don't think a question asking about pros/cons for a programming design decision is a discussion question. A discussion question would be more like "Would you store images in the database, or just links to files?" Even someone who prefers the former could potentially list out pros/cons for both choices.

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#25

Post by recursive »

genwin wrote: post #12
Spooky23 wrote: post #8

I think they made the right call on this example -- the whole point of SO is to get specific answers to specific questions. This question is vague and without the context that a reasonable person would need to give a specific answer. There are plenty of examples of good questions being closed because they are perceived as generating too much discussion (esp. on the "programmers" se site). IMO, you've given us an exam…

Please elaborate. If I want to know the pros/cons of storing images in a database, vs. (say) storing only the links to images in the database, what more specific question should I look for? How is that question too general or vague? Apparently at least 400 people thought it was reasonable, than thought it was unreasonable. 50+ people thought it was reasonable enough to respond to.

It doesn't have a specific verifiable answer. It's an invitation to discussion.

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#26

Post by LocalPCGuy »

To the vast majority of the people using StackOverflow, it is a site for getting information about programming. The mods and superusers may know that it is a site for getting specific 1-to-1 answers to questions, but I'll guarantee that the average user browsing the site does not know that. You have to click to the FAQs to find that out, and many people will not do that. Even if you go to the About page, you see this: "Stack Overflow is a programming Q & A site that’s free. Free to ask questions, free to answer questions..." No mention of the types of questions that are acceptable.

The above plus SO's popularity (and prominence in search engine results) are the very reasons I find the moderation a bit over the top. IMO, it should be up to the community, not a handful of mods to decide which questions are valuable and appropriate. Some questions, while they don't have a specific answer, are extremely valuable to gather opinions, particularly for those who don't have as much experience in a given subject.

So yes, I find the moderation disturbing and over-zealous, but will continue to put up with it since it is the best resource for finding quick answers to questions.

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#27

Post by recursive »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #19
foxhop wrote: post #4

I left stack overflow about a year ago when they banned my account for a week for spamming. I posted a similar answer to a few similar question (like 3 honest) and they banned me. I was so outraged I quit the site completely. That being said I thought about building a site to compete, but stackoverflow basically owns the market. I have no way of collecting users like they do.

Stackoverflow took their market directly out of the hands of expertsexchange. They're a lot better than expertsexchange in every respect I can think of offhand, but they do have weaknesses, and I agree with the submitter that one of those is the moderation culture. I'm surprised more users aren't bothered by it. The Internet is not going to run out of space. Just as with Wikipedia, "deletionism" is inevitably an atte…

The internet running out of space is a red herring. The concern is a dilution of focus of Stack Overflow.

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#28

Post by genwin »

dbecker wrote: post #21
genwin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. To me it's simply a matter of whether the question is on-topic for programming. If so, don't lock it for being off-topic. It seems so simple, especially when the question gets 400+ net votes and 50+ responses. They should let their users decide, with their votes, whether a question is off-topic. SO is good, but it could be much better without so many locked on-topic questions. I don't want to ask a question t…

I could be wrong, but I don't think it was closed for off-topic (non-programming). I would guess it was locked for "not having an answer." They say you should be soliciting answers rather than opinions... and, for better or for worse, that is probably why this was locked.

Clearly for worse, considering that the lock reason is (in boldface): "it is not considered a good, on-topic question for this site".

A question asking for pros/cons of storing images in a database (vs. links to files) is not too subjective in my book. It's a typical programmer question.

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#29

Post by foxhop »

recursive wrote: post #27
CamperBob2 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stackoverflow took their market directly out of the hands of expertsexchange. They're a lot better than expertsexchange in every respect I can think of offhand, but they do have weaknesses, and I agree with the submitter that one of those is the moderation culture. I'm surprised more users aren't bothered by it. The Internet is not going to run out of space. Just as with Wikipedia, "deletionism" is inevitably an atte…

The internet running out of space is a red herring. The concern is a dilution of focus of Stack Overflow.

The answers and questions were both on topic and related to the sites purpose connecting common programming problems with great programming answers.

Re: Ask HN: Is StackOverflow being ruined by its mods?

#30

Post by j45 »

genwin wrote: post #3
j45 wrote: post #2

I noticed the same and I'm not sure if there's a commentary as to why this trend has continued to increase. Programming isn't a syntax only problem and has many steps before, and after it that are relevant in software engineering. Maybe the mods are taking too much of a narrow programming syntax only approach. To me, that may exacerbate the issues of poor software because people are only searching for a means to the…

> Maybe the mods are taking too much of a narrow programming syntax only approach. With the 400+ vote count for that question, and 50+ people taking the time to reply, I say yes indeed they are. It is definitely a programming question in my book, one whose answers could save me & others a lot of work/time.

Looking back at my own SO account (5000 karma earned well over a year or two ago) which I've let idle, I noticed questions that have been closed as off-topic continue to earn karma -- indicating the mods are off on the soul of the place :P
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