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Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#21
post #5

Wage fixing is when multiple companies agree to set wages at a certain amount. Sharing compensation data across companies doesn't necessarily mean wage fixing. Company A can use the compensation data from Company B to try and compete better for talent. Not saying thats what it will be used for, but it's technically not wage fixing.

Stochastic wage fixing is still wage fixing

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#22
post #5

Wage fixing is when multiple companies agree to set wages at a certain amount. Sharing compensation data across companies doesn't necessarily mean wage fixing. Company A can use the compensation data from Company B to try and compete better for talent. Not saying thats what it will be used for, but it's technically not wage fixing.

I'm asking this as someone with 0 legal knowledge: doesn't the context matter? If every company takes this data and is like "we want to pay at the 95th percentile" (which is what they all do), that seems like wage fixing even if they're not all agreeing to it together.

If you opened up a business selling water bottles, you'd probably check what price water sells at across brands, then decide in which segment to price it.

"I want to sell my water at the upper end and market it as a gourmet brand"

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#23
post #5

Wage fixing is when multiple companies agree to set wages at a certain amount. Sharing compensation data across companies doesn't necessarily mean wage fixing. Company A can use the compensation data from Company B to try and compete better for talent. Not saying thats what it will be used for, but it's technically not wage fixing.

> Wage fixing is when multiple companies agree to set wages at a certain amount.

I am not an expert on wage fixing laws in the US, but I came across a class action on wage fixing a few days ago (Ron Brown et al v JBS USA Food Company et al) where part of what was aledged was the illegal exchange of salary data via surveys [1].

> The Red Meat Industry Compensation Survey conducted by WMS on behalf of the Defendant Processors violated the Safe Harbor Guidelines in at least three ways. First, the Defendant Processors, not WMS, collectively managed and controlled the annual Red Meat Industry Compensation Surveys. Second, those Surveys often contained information about the Defendant Processors’ future compensation plans and practices. Third, Defendant Processors had extensive discussions about the Survey results, including at in-person meetings, during which they disclosed their respective compensation rates, practices, and plans

[1]: https://www.classaction.org/media/brown-et-al-v-jbs-usa-food...

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#24
post #5

Wage fixing is when multiple companies agree to set wages at a certain amount. Sharing compensation data across companies doesn't necessarily mean wage fixing. Company A can use the compensation data from Company B to try and compete better for talent. Not saying thats what it will be used for, but it's technically not wage fixing.

Stochastic wage fixing is still wage fixing

Your honor, the algorithm made me do it!

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#25

It’s new so the government hasn’t caught on yet. They probably also need a larger market share to be considered fixing.

ADP has a product called compensation benchmarking which is very similar to how this is described.

They’ve had that product (with various names) for years.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#26

I believe wage-fixing would require companies to agree to…fix wages. Having knowledge of average compensation is not inherently problematic. Firms are still able to decide to pay more or less than the prevailing wage.

"I believe wage-fixing would require companies to agree to…fix wages"

They don't need to officially twirl their mustaches and laugh evilly while telling each other how they're definitely fixing wages. They just need to share data on wages with other companies in the same or a similar business with the intent of decreasing wages. That is already illegal, because they're colluding with competitors to keep wages low.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#27

My guess is that they would argue that most of the data they use is public, just go on LinkedIn and look at 10 job listings to have a range.

Pave's data is _incredibly_ revealing. First of all it covers historical data for every single employee, secondly it includes stock as well. It also relates the compensation to performance.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#28
post #12

It smells awfully close to: https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-realp...

Reading that, seems like RealPage could protect itself from similar problems if they simply avoid using the same sales rhetoric, and don't do explicit recommendations. "You are paying way more for this position than others... hmmmm."

Surely they are aware of the similarities and are strategizing.

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#29
Collecting and sharing data is in itself not illegal. RealPage was also using the data to algorithmically generate a rent number and encouraging landlords to automatically use that number with no room for negotiation. It literally branded itself as a service that would prevent landlords from bidding against each other. That part is what pushed it into collusion.

And regardless of whether it is legal or not, the problem has to go beyond a handful of small startups for the DoJ to get involved. RealPage is used in 80%+ of multifamily rental buildings in the US. What is Pave's market share? How many employees are affected by their practices?

Re: Ask HN: Why is Pave legal?

#30
post #5

Wage fixing is when multiple companies agree to set wages at a certain amount. Sharing compensation data across companies doesn't necessarily mean wage fixing. Company A can use the compensation data from Company B to try and compete better for talent. Not saying thats what it will be used for, but it's technically not wage fixing.

Stochastic wage fixing is still wage fixing

unless you collude with other companies, doesn't seem like it is.
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