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Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

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Re: Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

#21

Post by izzydata »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #17
izzydata wrote: post #8

All of that firmware that isn't a self driving autopilot blackbox is probably quite safe. Such as anti-lock breaks and fuel injection timing. I am never going to put my life in the hands of some software doing image analysis using machine learning.

> I am never going to put my life in the hands of some software doing image analysis using machine learning. Well...on your car, at least. I'm not sure how comforting that approach is when you're surrounded on the interstate by Tesla "FSD"s.

I'm ok with doing a bit of defensive driving against Teslas or bad drivers in general.

Re: Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

#22

Post by AlotOfReading »

protortyp wrote: post #10

If you're interested in this topic, you might want to check out ASRG[1]. It's a community of safety and security professionals in the industry working to improve standards. They share their research openly and have regular in-person and online events where you can reach out to people. [1] https://asrg.io/

"Safety" and "Security" are considered separate topics in the automotive world, even though there's some overlap between them. There are usually completely separate teams with different skillsets responsible for each at any given manufacturer. ASRG is pretty focused on the security side rather than the safety side.

Re: Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

#23

Post by izzydata »

SoftTalker wrote: post #16
PaulHoule wrote: post #3

I am scared of the infotainment system myself as it could distract you to death. That goes for cell phone and tablet and the stick-on GPS which gets confused in the most complex urban areas, falls into your lap when the suction cup fails, etc.

My big complaint is with the transition of controls from dedicated, tactile knobs, switches, and levers to touch-screen buttons or menus which demand more visual attention (i.e. distraction from driving) to operate.

This is my least favorite trend in new cars. If there aren't any new cars in 10 years that aren't just a giant screen in the center then I guess I'm going to be walking.

You can make a modern electric vehicle with actual buttons and dials. There is nothing about a car not having a gas motor that requires every tiny bit of functionality being controlled by a touch tablet. If anything it just seems like laziness in car design.

Re: Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

#24

Post by jimbomins »

mcqueenjordan wrote: post #4

ISO 26262 is the functional safety standard that automobile manufacturers adhere to. Furthermore, companies with a strong safety culture may also have other safety controls, including MISRA, AUTOSAR, and others. I think reputable car companies take this stuff very seriously, but your concern is also well placed.

I've been out of automotive safety critical software (engine, brake, controllers, etc...) but still have friends in it. Proper best practice is still followed by the likes of Toyota, Jaguar and Ford as the ones I've had experience in. That means the coding standards mentioned. Full requirements->design->implementation with functional unit testing, module unit testing and system testing including using simulators. Multiple people doing reviews, strict standards enforcement. Static analysis and code test coverage aiming for 100% path coverage with testing even when I was doing it. With staff typically staying on projects for the full 5 years of development.

Ford as one I can speak about with knowledge took seriously the cost of recalls versus catching issues in testing. It's massively cheaper to spend money up front to do full process and catch every bug you can than to cover recall costs to update later not even considering liabilities if anything does go pop.

Mistakes of course happen. But they're also rarely working from scratch.

It makes working in modern ways horrific seeing the shoddy shit tossed out to meet consumer gadget deadlines.

Re: Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

#25

Post by jimbomins »

SoftTalker wrote: post #16
PaulHoule wrote: post #3

I am scared of the infotainment system myself as it could distract you to death. That goes for cell phone and tablet and the stick-on GPS which gets confused in the most complex urban areas, falls into your lap when the suction cup fails, etc.

My big complaint is with the transition of controls from dedicated, tactile knobs, switches, and levers to touch-screen buttons or menus which demand more visual attention (i.e. distraction from driving) to operate.

You may get your wish. Recent research has shown that real knobs and switches are much less of a driver distraction than trying to fiddle with screens or get voice commands correct. The two either mean you look away from the driving because you can't just feel your way across a screen like physical controls or you add cognitive load whilst thinking and talking.

I'm with you and hope all the idiot touch screen crap is ditched.

Re: Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

#26

Post by moooo99 »

jimbomins wrote: post #20
uncletammy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think reputable car companies take this stuff very seriously, but your concern is also well placed. I trusted Volkswagen because of their reputation. Then the news broke about them systematically lying and breaking the law with respect to engine emissions. Shortly after this came to light, other "reputable car companies" turned out to have been not trustworthy at all. Yes there are good standards in place and som…

Faking those things is a totally different state of affairs to safe operation. I've been out of automotive for 20 years but never met anyone who would compromise normal operational safety. Let's face it most people who work on cars love to drive cars. They would be putting their own and families lives at risk.

> I've been out of automotive for 20 years but never met anyone who would compromise normal operational safety.

There is nothing to gain with not taking safety seriously, but fortunes to loose. Many of the software components of traditional automakers are built by suppliers. If a serious safety issue would arise and cause fatalities, the suppliers and the OEMs would not only have to pay enormous amounts in damages, they'd also need to issue recalls that might even pose an existential threat to the company.

Re: Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

#27

Post by jimbomins »

weakfortress wrote: post #6

A long time ago I attended a DEFCON where this was discussed. Long before it became a big deal in the industry to have all this tech in cars. CANBUS was broken reliably, and if my memory serves me they even had a car you could take a shot at hacking yourself. After playing with it the entire conference I came to the conclusion I would never own a modern car if I can avoid it. Any car running CANBUS is vulnerable to a…

That's not strictly fair. The problem is that the critical systems were moved to share transport on the main hub with infotainment (safe, I did modelling of the messages for Volvo way back). On that hub is wireless access. Cars have been using CANBUS way longer than that issue entering play and without physical access you wouldn't be able to hack them and with physical access you could easily tamper with brakes or other systems.

Re: Ask HN: Risk of unsafe software in automobiles?

#28

Post by AlotOfReading »

jimbomins wrote: post #20
uncletammy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think reputable car companies take this stuff very seriously, but your concern is also well placed. I trusted Volkswagen because of their reputation. Then the news broke about them systematically lying and breaking the law with respect to engine emissions. Shortly after this came to light, other "reputable car companies" turned out to have been not trustworthy at all. Yes there are good standards in place and som…

Faking those things is a totally different state of affairs to safe operation. I've been out of automotive for 20 years but never met anyone who would compromise normal operational safety. Let's face it most people who work on cars love to drive cars. They would be putting their own and families lives at risk.

I've also never seen intentional compromises, but I've seen unintentional compromises made through ignorance or lack of foresight plenty of times. The bigger automakers seem to be better at this by virtue of developed processes, but what I've seen from smaller companies is terrifying.
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