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Ask HN: Racism in London

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Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#21

Post by konaraddi »

lazybreather wrote: post #8

A bit off-topic, but something unique to India is reverse-racism, if I can call it that. Many a times, me and friends (mostly all male) try to enter a decent restaurant/pub only to be shown away saying its all booked for the evening. We could clearly see that was not the case. Even if stag entry is generally allowed at those places. But they happily welcome foreigners (of all kinds) right after they deny us. We India…

If this was the norm in India then the food service business would collapse because there are far far more Indians than foreigners even in most or all of the touristy areas. There’s likely a more plausible explanation for you and your guy friends being denied (e.g. visiting a restaurant in a touristy area that prefers foreigners to take advantage of the diff in purchasing power by charging more or expecting more in tips).

> We Indians are an amusing bunch!

There’s some irony in ending your comment with a slightly racist remark. Imagine if one said, “Them are an amusing bunch!” A bit racist isn’t it?

I read a quote on HN that stuck with me and articulates why some Indians will say something self-hating (even when it’s off-topic, as you explicitly acknowledged in the first sentence of your comment):

“For many Indians, self-flagellation is a sign of their intellectual arrival.”

Perhaps an artifact of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonial_mentality

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#22

Post by pannSun »

benjaminwootton wrote: post #16
dagmx wrote: post #7

I had this experience as an Indian there (but also in the US and Canada so not exclusive to London). In fact, our experience was almost identical in a restaurant in Windsor, and after we were allowed in, we were sat in the worst spot behind a door, not allowed to use a different table and the waiter outright ignored us. A white family came and were given a great table, and attended to. All other tables were empty. A…

I haven’t looked up the stats but London must be at least a third black or south Asian ethnicity, maybe more. I’m sure any restaurant that was systematically racist to those groups would soon go out of business.

Good guess. While London was 87% white British in 1971, that is now down to 37% (54% if counting all whites, not just Britons):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_London#Ethnicity...

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#23

Post by LandR »

I was in a restaurant a couple months ago. The group in front of us asked for a table for three. They got turned away and told nothing available. Then we went up and I joked that we wanted a table for three, but I heard they had none...

She turned around, had a look around and gave us a table.

I have no idea what the people in front of us did wrong. They seemed pleasant and polite. But everyone involved was white, so I wouldn't necessarily take your issue as racist.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#24

Post by zarzavat »

jerz wrote: post #10

Probably not race related. Ever since Brexit/Covid restaurants are understaffed. We regularly go in to empty restaurants and get told they’re fully booked. If it’s a chain place, especially, the staff just don’t care enough to “fit you in”.

This is the correct answer. It’s because of post-Brexit staffing issues. Just because there’s a table it doesn’t mean there’s enough front-of-house or back-of-house staff to serve it.

See this recent article: https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/dec/04/staff-shortages...

Britain is not racist per se, it’s xenophobic. For years before Brexit the group that drew the most ire were white Eastern Europeans.

Being African American might even be an asset as there’s a bit of a stigma against white Americans.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#25

Post by miiiiiike »

Yep, had a few experiences.

I know a white guy from America who had a Polish last name. When we were in London we never had any problems until he had to show his passport. After that, there was a better than even chance that people would start being rude to him. There was "Go Home Polish Vermin" graffiti (You know those cute red phone booths? Ever look in one?) and some of the news channels had a certain sentiment.

Unrelated, related story.

We got into town on a bank holiday and almost everything was closed. We saw a guy come out of a door and walk towards us. We asked if he knew where we could get breakfast and he said "Nope. Cheers Mate!" We were at a four-way stop and had to pick a direction. We ended up walking in the direction that the guy had come from.. And it turned out he had just walked out of a restaurant serving breakfast. I've understood "Cheers Mate" to mean "Fuck Off" since then.

Back to the story.

The third time he got an "OHHHHH, POOOOLISH!" from someone looking at his passport, he snatched it from the guy, smiled, and said "Nope. American. Cheers Mate." and walked in.

After the trip he reflected on how some of his UK colleagues and investors had treated him over the years. He ended up changing his name.

You can't change your skin color.

Prejudice is out there and there was always that weird moment of "Is this really happening or are we imagining it?"

Having it be subtle enough that you're left wondering, that was the most fucked up part.

So I know what you mean.

Give 'em a "Cheers Mate." next time it happens.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#26

Post by nuc1e0n »

benjaminwootton wrote: post #13

I can’t speak to your experience, but London is generally an extremely diverse and tolerant city. As a white British family, we often get turned away from half empty restaurants too. If you turn up at 12 noon, they will hold the table even if it isn’t booked till 1.30 pm. I wonder how much revenue they leak from this as it seems so obvious to let you take the table on a time limit but they never offer. I think some a…

Restaurants also can have a number of tables pre-allocated to third party companies on the assumption someone can book them though that third party. Similar to this, I once tried to stay in a hotel by just showing up to the reception desk. They told me they were fully booked. I then found the same hotel on a booking website, booked it on there, showed the hotel my now 'reserved' room then stayed at the hotel the same night.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#27

Post by miiiiiike »

hotz wrote: post #17

Is this not something more appropriate for a facebook post or tweet instead of HN...

I actually think this is a valid question. I think the post belongs here because a lot of us run companies that have or will have business that requires us to travel to London.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#28

Post by nuc1e0n »

quasarsunnix wrote: post #19

Grew up in London and had a black colleague tell me a very similar story. This would have been about 2017 I think. I know a lot of people will tell you it's not possible, etc., but as a Londoner I know there's a lot of unspoken racism in the city, especially in the east-end, where I grew up.

Obviously most places have their racists but I'd say the east-end of London is one of the least racist places anywhere in the world. People come to live there from all over. When visiting someplace unfamiliar it's easy to see any treatment you get that's not to your liking as a personal attack of some kind. Maybe those people are just bastards to everyone.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#29

Post by ac50hz »

I would always recommend taking some photos, if possible and if relevant, and leave a review concerning, and asking, about their apparent reservation policy.

London can be great. It can also be incredibly disappointing when you’re confronted by the isms that we had expected to have been excised.

Re: Ask HN: Racism in London

#30

Post by ChildOfChaos »

Are you sure it is anything to do with Racism? I mean you have no evidence of that and it's a large assumption on your part?

London has a huge black community and non-white residents, it's a very multicultural place, I would be surprised if the actual reason is pure racism, particularly at a restaurant.

If the restaurant has hired black women to work there, it's a bit odd that they are turning away customers for being black. Maybe there was another reason the person didn't like the look of you? Maybe just someone having a rough day and didn't want to serve any more customers etc, I wouldn't jump straight to racism, all you know is that you were turned away when they had a table, but the reason is an unknown unknown.

You say "You don't know what to make of this" but then your title says 'racism'... the reality is something odd happened that you don't know what, I wouldn't hold on to that, just get on with your day, there are plenty of real dicks and real bad apples to deal with, rather than assuming that because something strange happened it was for this reason.

I'm not knocking you, you likely feel this way for very justified reasons, i.e there are a lot of racists out there and it is an issue you have to deal with that you should not, but it's not worth adding to that with something you don't for sure know is the reason.

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