Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#21

Post by winternett » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:31 PM UTC

nickjj wrote: post #4

Using React with an API back-end is only 1 of many choices. There's tools like Hotwire[0] and htmx[1] (both are back-end agnostic) that will let you create good old boring web apps with any back-end language where you don't need to write a ton of JS. You can sprinkle in front-end quality of life enhancements as needed to make nice feeling web apps with reasonably minimal complexity. [0]: https://hotwired.dev/ [1]: ht…

Nothing involving React will resolve the complexity issue...

The benefits react provides in functionality (page transitions and controls) could have been better addressed within web browsers, but the process of web design is constantly trying to resolve front end issues in code to suit a wide variety of OS versions and browsers, which is where a big problem lies...

i don't have the answers myself, but this urge to use tons of different libraries, langs, services, and tools just to build web apps, and then the never ending cycle of updating things daily to maintain stability and security may make people money, but it's really not sustainable in the long run. This is why most sites are beginning to be run on platforms like WIX and sharepoint, while independent developers and small app companies go broke. There is just too much damn complexity gumming up everything.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#22

Post by jitl » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:31 PM UTC

I worked in web development for about a year, then switched to general devtools and CI/CD, then to infrastructure orchestration work on deployment, Kubernetes, service proxies, deployment. After that I joined a startup and worked on backend, mobile apps (Android), and now I’m back to working on complicated frontend.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#23

Post by joeblow21 » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:34 PM UTC

No post body was provided.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#24

Post by jt2190 » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:36 PM UTC

It sure looks like we’re nearing the “peak Java Enterprise Edition” moment for frontend web development space.

We got here honestly: Single Page Apps made “fat” clients possible in the browser, but that meant a lot of logic had to move to the front end, so they naturally became bigger and more complex. Meanwhile, we still want to have the “lazy installation” experience of browsing to a web page and having things load quickly, and this adds all sorts of complexity like bundle splitting, hydration, “edge” hosting, etc.

I’m not sure where we go from here, complexity-wise, but here are some guesses:

* no/low code will produce a new “ruby on rails” for the modern SPA space. (There are already contenders.) * increased environment complexity will move development into the cloud and off of our local machines. * there won’t be a sudden disappearance of the older approaches, just like SPAs didn’t kill RoR.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#25

Post by tobinfekkes » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #15

alberth wrote: post #14

PHP. Use PHP, it’s so crazy easy for web development. - No compiling, - no middleware, - no state (which also means no memory leaks), - just drop a file on web server and it works (no crazy CI pipeline), - the documentation is fantastic, - it’s extremely fast, and - no surprises because it’s tried and true. PHP is so under appreciated.

The issue with php is the type of developers that use it and bloated frameworks. Nearly all developers still debate wether to use setters and getters and have no clue how to use the language itself, as a result using over engineered frameworks. The language itself is nice but is swamped by amateurs.

The "PHP is full of amateurs" trope is so tired.

You know why there are amateurs? Because it's simple, understandable, maintainable, low barrier of entry.

You know what amateurs do with simple things and time? Become professionals. Then they solve other people's problems, rather than solve never-ending developer problems we create ourselves.

Having done PHP development for +12 years, I have never once had a debate about getters and setters. Nor did I know that was something to even debate about.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#26

Post by stavros » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

jt2190 wrote: post #24

It sure looks like we’re nearing the “peak Java Enterprise Edition” moment for frontend web development space. We got here honestly: Single Page Apps made “fat” clients possible in the browser, but that meant a lot of logic had to move to the front end, so they naturally became bigger and more complex. Meanwhile, we still want to have the “lazy installation” experience of browsing to a web page and having things load…

I think we'll just go back to the old approaches. I already build apps with thin frontends, and maybe use HTMX if desired. Fat frontends aren't worth the complexity unless you have an interactive app (e.g. Google Docs), which you very probably don't.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#27

Post by xd » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

yrgulation wrote: post #20

xd wrote: post #8

I bumped into an old friend recently and he and his wife work at a real estate company. They were raving about this new system they are a couple of years into the development of and how it's built on this great "Kubernetes" system.. they asked what I develop my products with and I almost felt embarrassed to say PHP and a couple of servers in two locations for redundancy that run Archlinux with a LAMP (LNMP? I guess w…

Thing is if you understand php you dont really need a framework. Sure composer packages are a must to avoid rewriting whats out there, but a framework not so much. When i conducted interviews i was shocked at how many php devs had no clue about what an sql injection is, they almost all answered “the framework does it for you” and it was such a basic thing.

Oh god ORM's, pointless waste of time and just an excuse not to learn SQL.. almost as bad as the #1 PHP fallacy; Smarty (which is still a thing).

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#28

Post by kbrannigan » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:41 PM UTC

coffeefirst wrote: post #16

I call this the "path to enlightenment." You have discovered that the most popular toolchain is overkill for 95% of the things its used for. The problem is that's true literally across the board. You move to the backend and you have to deal with people who fell in love with microservices and weird databases that they didn't need. You move to ops and you have to deal with k8s when a single container would do. If you t…

Speaking of ops. What is the simplest reproducible way to accomplish this task.

- create vm instance ( setup firewall, users, network dna, stuff) - install : apache, runtime - install app.

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#29

Post by dtx1 » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

dimmke wrote: post #9

>I’ve hit a point where it just doesn’t seem like the end justifies the means in the vast majority of cases anymore I agree, but the only path forward is to change the specifications for HTML/CSS/JavaScript. As an industry we need to accept that these technologies get used to build web pages as well as software and adjust. This will remove a ton of the tooling. I think there are 3 basic things we could do to solve th…

Finally someone is saying it openly. The Web is amazing, the softwarestack powering is horrible.

Just imagine for a second we were to start from scratch. Imagine an HTML/CSS Spec thats easy enough to implement so that we have multiple independent vendors with competing, correct implementations. Imagine something like web assembly as the basis for scripting those HTML/CSS Engines. Imagine the amount of energy, developer time and bugs we could save with a sane, modern standard that implements all the lessons learned from what came before...

One can dream...

Re: Ask HN: Getting tired of complexity in web development

#30

Post by yrgulation » Sat, Oct 08, 2022, 6:42 PM UTC

tobinfekkes wrote: post #25

yrgulation wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with php is the type of developers that use it and bloated frameworks. Nearly all developers still debate wether to use setters and getters and have no clue how to use the language itself, as a result using over engineered frameworks. The language itself is nice but is swamped by amateurs.

The "PHP is full of amateurs" trope is so tired. You know why there are amateurs? Because it's simple, understandable, maintainable, low barrier of entry. You know what amateurs do with simple things and time? Become professionals. Then they solve other people's problems, rather than solve never-ending developer problems we create ourselves. Having done PHP development for +12 years, I have never once had a debate ab…

You are right about the reasons there are so many amateurs in the php world. But i disagree with the statement that they become professionals over time. If you keep doing the same wrong thing over and over you just become better at doing the same wrong thing over and over, many being just old junior developers. Add the fresh supply of amateurs entering the php job market each year and you are stuck.

There are elites among php, you may be one of them, but having interviewed hundreds believe me the quality is very very low.