Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad?

#21

Post by s5806533 » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 4:16 PM UTC

Original author here. I have the following desiderata concerning MUA:

* it should be able to work offline (with a dedicated send/receive cycle),

* it should run fine on a Raspberry Pi (out of principle more than anything),

* it should favor plaintext mail,

* it should integrate well with all kinds of workflows and platforms (such as git email),

* it should be a veritable platform for experimentation (i.e., it should be malleable).

I think the case can be made that re-inventing the wheel can sometimes be beneficial. And e-mail to me seems rather 'underexposed' (maybe because most people think it has been a solved problem since at least Gmail).

Re: Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad?

#22

Post by upofadown » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 7:44 PM UTC

s5806533 wrote: post #19

upofadown wrote: post #8

I really hope that encrypted email is not a lost cause because that would strongly imply that end to end encrypted messaging is a lost cause in general. If we can overcome the problem in any single case we can overcome the problem generally, even for encrypted email. This isn't something we can overcome with a purely technical solution. The basic ideas behind end to end encrypted messaging will eventually have to be…

With respect, I do object. End-to-end encrypted messaging does work, and Signal (among others) is proof of that. With e-mail, either (a) you are backwards compatible and sending unencrypted (even by accident) remains a possibility, or (b) you break compatibility, but then it's no longer e-mail. (Signal is an extreme example of the latter: it just uses its own protocol.)

Signal is a good example here because someone did a usability study. In a usability study involving Signal[1], 21 out of 28 computer science students failed to establish and maintain a secure end to end encrypted connection. The usability of end to end encrypted messaging is a serious issue. We should not kid ourselves into thinking it is a solved issue. For all practical purposes it is the issue.

[1] https://www.ndss-symposium.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/09...

Re: Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad?

#23

Post by s5806533 » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 9:29 PM UTC

upofadown wrote: post #22

s5806533 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With respect, I do object. End-to-end encrypted messaging does work, and Signal (among others) is proof of that. With e-mail, either (a) you are backwards compatible and sending unencrypted (even by accident) remains a possibility, or (b) you break compatibility, but then it's no longer e-mail. (Signal is an extreme example of the latter: it just uses its own protocol.)

Signal is a good example here because someone did a usability study. In a usability study involving Signal[1], 21 out of 28 computer science students failed to establish and maintain a secure end to end encrypted connection. The usability of end to end encrypted messaging is a serious issue. We should not kid ourselves into thinking it is a solved issue. For all practical purposes it is the issue. [1] https://www.nds…

This is interesting, and it causes me to reevaluate my stance.

At least we have to agree on what we mean when we say that "end-to-end encryption works". I think there are `shades' of "working" if you will -- for instance, I know I mostly ignore when the key material changes in a Signal conversation, and this could be used to fool me. But then we have to talk about attack vectors and what we want to be protected from. I think it's mostly large-scale data collection and analysis rather than targeted attacks (like the CIA might do).

At any rate, thanks for setting me straight. I will read the paper!

Re: Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad?

#24

Post by MaknMoreGtnLess » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 10:22 PM UTC

s5806533 wrote: post #17

MaknMoreGtnLess wrote: post #13

It seems to me that majority of users don't want to deal with a native application - specially one that: 1. They would have to install, maintain, backup and configure themselves 2. Has a reasonable web application, that, as a major perk, they don't have to install, maintain, backup and configure themselves Due to the lack of demand for such a product, I am not surprised the existing products arn't polished/well maint…

Yes, I totally see your point. Gmail and similar offers are convenient, which means that native software has some very stiff competition and not a lot of adoption. I'm interested in frugal computing, and I want my software to run smoothly on a Raspberry Pi if at all possible. So I do have some demand for a native program or, rather, set of programs. Besides, on a principle level, I fail to see how something as simple…

> I'm interested in frugal computing, and I want my software to run smoothly on a Raspberry Pi if at all possible. So I do have some demand for a native program or, rather, set of programs.

I understand. My point is that it's likely you're a fraction of the overall "home PC" market who are fine purchasing a regular PC/Laptop/Tablet with 16GB+ RAM and multiple cores (because it's so cheap now) if that can support apps that simplify their overhead.

SO while a Raspberry Pi with a NAS that backsup to rsync.net might consume way less power and be more cost efficient, it might require technical overhead that majority of people are unwilling/unable to support/incur.

> Besides, on a principle level, I fail to see how something as simple as e-mail should need (or be allowed to use) something as complicated and resource-hungry as a web browser

From a developer of a product POV, it's much simpler and less of an overhead building a web app that runs in a web browser than a native app that runs on 5 different platforms and architectures.

Essentially the developer of products are outsourcing the headaches of 5 different platform and architecture compatibility to the web browser.

Re: Ask HN: Is the state of mail user agents that sad?

#25

Post by s5806533 » Thu, Feb 10, 2022, 11:06 PM UTC

MaknMoreGtnLess wrote: post #24

s5806533 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I totally see your point. Gmail and similar offers are convenient, which means that native software has some very stiff competition and not a lot of adoption. I'm interested in frugal computing, and I want my software to run smoothly on a Raspberry Pi if at all possible. So I do have some demand for a native program or, rather, set of programs. Besides, on a principle level, I fail to see how something as simple…

> I'm interested in frugal computing, and I want my software to run smoothly on a Raspberry Pi if at all possible. So I do have some demand for a native program or, rather, set of programs. I understand. My point is that it's likely you're a fraction of the overall "home PC" market who are fine purchasing a regular PC/Laptop/Tablet with 16GB+ RAM and multiple cores (because it's so cheap now) if that can support apps…

Again, I have to agree with you. I know I don't represent the majority, and I know that web apps have advantages (at least in this economy, so long as natural resources are cheaper than programmer hours). I don't argue with that. But I still find it a bit sad ;)