Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

news.ycombinator.com

21–30 of 51 posts

Re: Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

#21
Gross = before expenses/taxes. Net = after (which, specifically, depends on the context).

Always negotiate your compensation in gross. Always negotiate hourly in hours, salary in years or months (most places prefer the former, but depending on your country it might be customary to discuss in the latter). A multiplication/division by 12 is usually sufficient.

Hourly pay means you work time, you get paid for exactly that time (give or take 15 minutes sometimes, usually it's rounded, often up to the next hour). Payments usually made every two weeks or every month.

Salaries are paid at a fixed frequency, usually monthly - sometimes, in very very rare cases, semiannually or even annually. Don't bother asking for a different pay schedule as it's generally company-wide and very difficult to change, and it also shouldn't affect you if you manage your own money correctly - the amount of money you make on average over time remains the same.

The reason for gross is, as you mention, taxes. Your specific situation affects how much you contribute to your community/country (via taxes), and the percentage/amount usually changes over time as your living situation changes (you get married, have children, get a raise, etc).

Your employer can't possibly know all of this in most cases (namely in the US, but also elsewhere) and also it's not their burden to manage your taxes (again, usually - namely in the US).

Your job is "I do services, you pay me for those services". The company needs to know how much they're paying for your services. How that income breaks down for you is your own deal.

Imagine a case where you're in a high tax bracket because you have a lot of successful side gigs. Your employer, paying net, would thus have to pay you more in order to keep the rate competitive for you, simply because you make more elsewhere. The employer loses out pretty heavily in this case. Just doesn't make much sense to do it that way.

Re: Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

#23
post #21

Gross = before expenses/taxes. Net = after (which, specifically, depends on the context). Always negotiate your compensation in gross. Always negotiate hourly in hours, salary in years or months (most places prefer the former, but depending on your country it might be customary to discuss in the latter). A multiplication/division by 12 is usually sufficient. Hourly pay means you work time, you get paid for exactly th…

Yes, and to build on your comment regarding the employer's lack of knowledge and control over taxes: Equity comp also means the employee has control over when they get compensated.

Maybe the employee will sell equity as it vests, maybe they'll keep it and sell it all ten years later. These choices will all drastically change the tax situation.

A good employer will work with you as a team to help you realize your financial strategy.

Re: Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

#24
post #21

Gross = before expenses/taxes. Net = after (which, specifically, depends on the context). Always negotiate your compensation in gross. Always negotiate hourly in hours, salary in years or months (most places prefer the former, but depending on your country it might be customary to discuss in the latter). A multiplication/division by 12 is usually sufficient. Hourly pay means you work time, you get paid for exactly th…

Yes, and to build on your comment regarding the employer's lack of knowledge and control over taxes: Equity comp also means the employee has control over when they get compensated. Maybe the employee will sell equity as it vests, maybe they'll keep it and sell it all ten years later. These choices will all drastically change the tax situation. A good employer will work with you as a team to help you realize your fina…

Yes though equity is a whole different discussion :D I wouldn't be comfortable making recommendations there since the world of equity is big and hairy and it's hard to give generic advice that isn't harmful in some situations.

Re: Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

#25
post #17
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The after-tax salary depends [...] on the spouse's income This is not true, in some countries. In the US it is true.

As another commenter pointed out this is a US based site and I would always assume it’s pretax salary. Even the Europeans who mention salaries will usually clarify if it is post tax.

My comment was about: In some countries your after-tax salary does not depend on your spouse. In those countries, people are taxed as individuals, not as a family unit.

Re: Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

#26
post #18
post #11

I know in Estonia, it is always after taxes, since tax laws are sufficiently simple that people pay the same percentage. In Denmark it's always pre-tax, because tax laws are so complicated that not even the tax authority knows how much you'll end up paying, and so we have an "adjustment" after the fact where you'll either get to pay an amount more, or get an amount back.. It's hilariously sad.

I’m surprised to hear that Denmark has such a complex tax system. That seems like something the US/UK would have so they can place infinite carve outs for special interest groups.

In fact the UK has something like that because of progressive taxation.

The idea is that a tax system should be "progressive", meaning people who earn a high income should pay a higher percentage of their income in tax, and conversely people who earn very little should pay a low, zero or even negative percentage.

Now imagine you work for two employers overlapping in time. E.g. one job in the daytimes and another in the evenings.

Your employers don't know about each other, so your total earnings before tax will not be known by either employer, but you should pay a higher percentage of tax due to your higher total income. So the state has to be involved in the calculation.

Re: Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

#27
In Spain, gross is pre-tax and pre-social security (health, unemployement and retirement) but only for the employee side.

The employer needs to pay an additional 25-30% on top of the gross salary for social security benefits but that amount is not included in the gross salary figure.

Re: Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

#28
post #18
post #11

I know in Estonia, it is always after taxes, since tax laws are sufficiently simple that people pay the same percentage. In Denmark it's always pre-tax, because tax laws are so complicated that not even the tax authority knows how much you'll end up paying, and so we have an "adjustment" after the fact where you'll either get to pay an amount more, or get an amount back.. It's hilariously sad.

I’m surprised to hear that Denmark has such a complex tax system. That seems like something the US/UK would have so they can place infinite carve outs for special interest groups.

We have progressive tax (which is complicated in itself, as you pay different rates on each paycheck, so, the first N amount, you pay 0% (bit it's not called that, ofc), then up to the next N, you pay some other percentage, and of the money after that N up to the next, you pay yet another percentage).

Then we have for some reason, chosen to subsidize banks, by letting people not pay tax on the percentage of money they pay to the bank that constitutes the interest. Then there are a million other factors that might influence it..

On top of that, you're not actually only taxed for the amount of money you earn in a year, you're taxed by the amount of money you thought, last year, that you were going to earn this year.. and there's more, that I am ignorant about, because I just.. accept that it's a black box and either receive or pay the money they ask at the end of the tax year.

Re: Ask HN: Salary discussions – numbers are before or after taxes?

#30
post #21

Gross = before expenses/taxes. Net = after (which, specifically, depends on the context). Always negotiate your compensation in gross. Always negotiate hourly in hours, salary in years or months (most places prefer the former, but depending on your country it might be customary to discuss in the latter). A multiplication/division by 12 is usually sufficient. Hourly pay means you work time, you get paid for exactly th…

Also, its super easy to calc your annual based on hours: just double the hourly rate and thats what you generally gross per year, i.e. $16/hour is ~32,000 per year.

So if you ever wonder, take your $160,000 per year and you are making $80 per hour... so your complaints about salary will diminish.

Post reply on HN