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Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

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Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#21

Post by trafficlight »

crikli wrote: post #19

I think it depends on whether an employer views passion as a character trait or a byproduct. The distinction is very important. I'm an employer (and a programmer) and I view passion as a byproduct of developers being properly incentivized to do something they find fascinating. That incentive varies from programmer to programmer. Incentives can be cash, equity, profit sharing, flexible hours, encouragement and recogni…

Do you try to keep your programmers interested for long periods of time? Or do you think that every programmer has a finite amount of time at your company and that they will move on after a few years?

Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#22

Post by cema »

chime wrote: post #8

* If you want low performance, give me low money. * If you want high performance, give me high money. * If you want loyalty/passion, give me equity/profit sharing. You can buy my performance i.e. time with money. You can buy my passion i.e. commitment with reciprocation. If you give me typical market wages without profit sharing, don't expect anything beyond typical performance without commitment.

On the surface, sounds logical. But somehow does not quite match my experience. Good professionals tend to perform better than the (ostensible) level of compensation they get.

Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#23

Post by dunstup »

cema wrote: post #22
chime wrote: post #8

* If you want low performance, give me low money. * If you want high performance, give me high money. * If you want loyalty/passion, give me equity/profit sharing. You can buy my performance i.e. time with money. You can buy my passion i.e. commitment with reciprocation. If you give me typical market wages without profit sharing, don't expect anything beyond typical performance without commitment.

On the surface, sounds logical. But somehow does not quite match my experience. Good professionals tend to perform better than the (ostensible) level of compensation they get.

I think you're correct, but with time if their level of compensation doesn't match their input, i would assume their commitment, performance goes down as well.

Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#24

Post by shriphani »

In return you must offer:

1. Access to CS literature (any lit. not just titles specific to the field we're in). 2. Encouragement for improving skills. 3. A culture that promotes interaction between people. 4. Machines that are fast, build quickly. 5. Willing to pay for a personal license to dev-tools. 6. Provide a very small percentage of company time to drop the main task at hand and pick up something completely unrelated to hack on.

This should be sufficient to ensure that your employees value their jobs and would rather continue than leave.

Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#25

Post by crikli »

trafficlight wrote: post #21
crikli wrote: post #19

I think it depends on whether an employer views passion as a character trait or a byproduct. The distinction is very important. I'm an employer (and a programmer) and I view passion as a byproduct of developers being properly incentivized to do something they find fascinating. That incentive varies from programmer to programmer. Incentives can be cash, equity, profit sharing, flexible hours, encouragement and recogni…

Do you try to keep your programmers interested for long periods of time? Or do you think that every programmer has a finite amount of time at your company and that they will move on after a few years?

Well, I've only been in my own business for three years and employing for not yet a couple so I don't really know yet.

The job I had before I started this business I always told my superiors that after three years a dev was going to start getting "the itch." I was only at that job for 4.5 years so I don't have the experience to know what really happens, but I did see guys start getting wanderlust at about three year, plus or minus. But I always felt that had more to do with unclear opportunities for growth, "just ok" equipment, and an uninspiring salary increase schedule.

So...I don't know. My gut says most will move on.

Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#26

Post by jarrettcoggin »

mtviewdave wrote: post #11

Define "passion". Do you mean: 1. Someone who will respond to your above-and-beyond commitment to them (in compensation, tools, respect, etc.) with above-and-beyond results? 2. Someone who will give above-and-beyond results even when given lousy tools, a poor work environment, unrealistic expectations, and mediocre compensation? #1 is fair to ask. #2 is not.

I second this.

In my experience at a previous company, they upgraded every developer and QA engineer's workspace to have high-end hardware and dual 24" monitors (1920x1200, not the 1080p BS). Previously barely-missed deadlines were practically eliminated, better employee morale appeared, more innovative ideas started appearing, and various other things showed up.

All in all, this convinced me and I'm a firm believer in giving employees great tools and freedom to approach things in their own way. It shows that the company cares about you, and that goes a long way with employees and their performance backs that up.

Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#27

Post by dougws »

There is a meaningful distinction to be made between passion about programming and passion about your product. The former is probably a necessity for good programmers, while the latter might not be necessary and might be hard to maintain without granting equity and/or having a really, really cool product.

Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#29

Post by danilocampos »

I'm not sure that passion is something to ask for as much as it is something to look for.

Even making shitty wages, I can't hide my passion for my work. When I was 15, bagging groceries and helping people load up their cars, I couldn't restrain my passion for doing things well, and that was $6 an hour. If I'm getting paid something approaching a reasonable wage while working on my true creative passions of UI/UX? Forget about it — I'm on fire.

So I think it's worthwhile to look for people who have that energy. With the caveat that such energy has value and if you can't provide full-market cash compensation you need to make up for it with a cocktail of other benefits like flexibility, autonomy, work environment, equity, great employee-selected tools and indulgence/encouragement for people's specific ambitions.

Re: Ask HN: Is passion a fair thing to ask for from an employee?

#30

Post by mirkules »

chime wrote: post #8

* If you want low performance, give me low money. * If you want high performance, give me high money. * If you want loyalty/passion, give me equity/profit sharing. You can buy my performance i.e. time with money. You can buy my passion i.e. commitment with reciprocation. If you give me typical market wages without profit sharing, don't expect anything beyond typical performance without commitment.

There's a great quote:

Money is not a motivator. But lack of money is a demotivator.

(Unfortunately, I don't remember who said this. Anyone?)

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