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Ask HN: Senior Software Engineer to Engineering Manager

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Re: Ask HN: Senior Software Engineer to Engineering Manager

#21

Post by ryandrake »

erhserhdfd wrote: post #8

I agree with the majority of the other posters; internal is typically best. In my experience, usually how this plays out is: 1. Establish yourself has a high performing SSE. You need to build this reputation both on your direct team and department, but ideally across the org broadly. 2. Make it known you wish to become a manager at some point in the future. Have conversations with your direct manager, but also consid…

Definitely do #2! I bailed on a job where I did plenty of 1 and 3, but instead of actually saying I wanted to manage, I crossed my fingers, hoping that all the good work would be noticed and rewarded. Well as the team grew, I thought to myself, "yessss they're going to need a manager now and I've definitely been showing that I could do it for the last few years! I am certainly at the top of the consideration list!"

Well, on a random 1:1, manager said "Oh, by the way, the team is growing and is too big for just me. We couldn't find a good internal candidate so we hired a new manager for you guys externally. Hope it works out!" Finally, at this point, way too late I said "Gee, I was kind of hoping to make that move myself!" Manager looked at me mystified that I'd be interested in career growth. Total miscommunication. I was really bummed, demotivated, disgusted, lots of negative emotions. I didn't even last another year there.

Don't do what I did :)

Re: Ask HN: Senior Software Engineer to Engineering Manager

#23

Post by nartz »

motohagiography wrote: post #17

My experience with going back and forth between manager and IC a few times over my career (I prefer to be what I call a radical-IC, usually a specialist consultant), it's important to understand how different the competencies are. First, a manager is not a super-engineer. Rarely are super-engineers good managers, and rarely are exceptional managers really good engineers. Second, we need to separate management from le…

Disagree with some of this. There is a need to define what 'management' actually 'is'. Great 'managers' are leaders imho. The difference being, that they help inspire and motivate a team, and help contribute to vision, direction, and clarity which a team can rally around, while encouraging collaboration and excellence, and setting clear and ambitious expectations.

Great ICs actually have a huge advantage here, because the key skill for an IC is often technology skills, whereas the key skill for a great leader/manager is trust with the team. Being able to have a deep technical understanding of the problem space will help to develop trust that much faster. However, the key transition is then to get out of the way, and use your knowledge to help challenge ideas while growing the team. The #1 piece of advice is to hold back from giving answers, and instead, challenge people with questions, to let them do the thinking.

Re: Ask HN: Senior Software Engineer to Engineering Manager

#24

Post by cornel_io »

bigethan wrote: post #15

Agree with all the advice that doing it internally will likely be easier (per the "When you're doing something new, don't do something new" maxim). That said, changing companies can enable rapid evolution. It'll (potentially) make it easier to be the manager you want to be, as opposed to the manager they think you'll be. In many cases it's likely better to do it where you are, but wanted to advocate for the benefits…

Who is going to hire someone to manage when they've never done it before, though? I certainly have never and would never taken a risk like that, it's hard enough to hire decent managers when you're looking at people who have proven histories, whereas when picking from internal candidates you at least have a sense of personality already and can guess who reports will trust.

I don't think I know any managers who didn't start doing it at a company they'd already been ICs at.

Re: Ask HN: Senior Software Engineer to Engineering Manager

#26

Post by cornel_io »

bhouser wrote: post #12

IMO a manager needs to make their direct reports and their team successful. But you can start doing that while you're an IC: get in the habit of unblocking people and generally being useful. Also, manage a coop student or intern. One of the reasons companies hire them is to give their ppl management experience, so take advantage of that. I did both of these things, and my company made me a manager 2 years earlier tha…

Yep: the #1 rule about asking for an official increase in responsibility is to already be doing the job you're asking for. You can't 100% do that with management (there's a lot of official stuff involved with that role) but you can definitely do as much of the softer stuff as possible, and get people to know and trust you, which is the most important factor.

Re: Ask HN: Senior Software Engineer to Engineering Manager

#27

Post by motohagiography »

nartz wrote: post #23
motohagiography wrote: post #17

My experience with going back and forth between manager and IC a few times over my career (I prefer to be what I call a radical-IC, usually a specialist consultant), it's important to understand how different the competencies are. First, a manager is not a super-engineer. Rarely are super-engineers good managers, and rarely are exceptional managers really good engineers. Second, we need to separate management from le…

Disagree with some of this. There is a need to define what 'management' actually 'is'. Great 'managers' are leaders imho. The difference being, that they help inspire and motivate a team, and help contribute to vision, direction, and clarity which a team can rally around, while encouraging collaboration and excellence, and setting clear and ambitious expectations. Great ICs actually have a huge advantage here, becaus…

Toward expanding the explanation, this is why I separated them. Leadership is neither sufficient or necessary for managers - as evidenced by the survival of every large organization. Management skill is neither sufficient or necessary for leadership, because leadership is less a thing than it is just the effect of being followed. I'm a big advocate of the necessity of charisma and inspiration, but crappy managers often think of themselves as leaders as a substitute and an excuse for failure, and leaders often don't accept responsibility for creating and managing the value feedback loop that sustains their teams - also as a substitute and an excuse for failure. I've reckoned with both, and they're hard to face, but well worth it. Somewhere between these poles is truth, and the art of managing and leading that I think you're referencing is technique applied to the more fundamental role differences I was implying.

Re: Ask HN: Senior Software Engineer to Engineering Manager

#28

Post by ChicagoDave »

There are different kinds of management. If we're talking about people management, you'll need to learn how to excel at emotional intelligence, understanding your direct reports on a personal level in order to motivate and monitor them. If we're talking about technical management, you'll need to know how to inspire people, remove blockers, mentor, and jump into code when needed, all while reporting upward.

For many, this is a very challenging transition. But I tell everyone under 30, you need to learn management skills before 40 so you can make the transition as early as possible. Talent eventually will side with younger people.

Re: Ask HN: Senior Software Engineer to Engineering Manager

#30

Post by frankc »

ryandrake wrote: post #21
erhserhdfd wrote: post #8

I agree with the majority of the other posters; internal is typically best. In my experience, usually how this plays out is: 1. Establish yourself has a high performing SSE. You need to build this reputation both on your direct team and department, but ideally across the org broadly. 2. Make it known you wish to become a manager at some point in the future. Have conversations with your direct manager, but also consid…

Definitely do #2! I bailed on a job where I did plenty of 1 and 3, but instead of actually saying I wanted to manage, I crossed my fingers, hoping that all the good work would be noticed and rewarded. Well as the team grew, I thought to myself, "yessss they're going to need a manager now and I've definitely been showing that I could do it for the last few years! I am certainly at the top of the consideration list!" W…

That is partly on you but also more on your manager. He should be talking about where you want to go with your career in 1-1s and certainly in reviews.
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