Why should we hire anyone based off the color of their skin/gender, versus for their level of competency? If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. Further, isn’t it a bit patronizing hiring people because they fit in a URM group, instead of hard work to sufficiently pass an interview/test/etc?
Actually, the companies that have made sure they use people from more than one subset of the population have better financial results. https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/diversity-and-inc...
Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
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Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#22The way I think of this topic is that diversity should be a metric, not a goal. If the overwhelming majority of the people I'm interviewing, hiring, and working with look like me, then I have to ask, are these really the most qualified people? I mean, there's one of two possibilities -- either in fact there's something about people who are very similar to me that makes them the most qualified OR there's a lot of tale…
> I mean, there's one of two possibilities -- either in fact there's something about people who are very similar to me that makes them the most qualified OR there's a lot of talent being overlooked and missed and my company is missing out here. The third and more likely option is that you're sampling from a population that looks mostly like you. If software developers are 90% male and men and women are equally compet…
But where did you get this measure of the population from? I'm skeptical that "population of software engineers I'm familiar with" is equal to "total universe of software engineers." And of course the "equally competent" -- well, if we're already deciding ahead of time that we know who's competent and who's not, I think that might be part of the problem, no?
Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#23I've recently seen some great hires at LinkedIn. We've also lost some great candidates because we were too slow (due to covid era freeze). Overall I'm excited that were bringing in talent that looks like the users we're serving.
Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#24Why should we hire anyone based off the color of their skin/gender, versus for their level of competency? If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. Further, isn’t it a bit patronizing hiring people because they fit in a URM group, instead of hard work to sufficiently pass an interview/test/etc?
> If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability.
This is only true if the company has a real product that customers pay for. If the company is based on "growth and engagement" then there is no real product and their survival merely depends on investor goodwill for which PR and virtue-signalling is important (this is the main reason companies boast about D&I so much).
Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#25I haven't been in any companies where diversity & inclusion has been a noticeable problem. However I've been at many companies that will try to find problems even where there are none to the point where the whole thing becomes an obvious virtue-signalling exercise rather than addressing any D&I issues.
Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#26The way I think of this topic is that diversity should be a metric, not a goal. If the overwhelming majority of the people I'm interviewing, hiring, and working with look like me, then I have to ask, are these really the most qualified people? I mean, there's one of two possibilities -- either in fact there's something about people who are very similar to me that makes them the most qualified OR there's a lot of tale…
To reply to both you and the original question, I talked about Goodhart's Law [0] recently with upper management on the topic of D&I. Since metrics become useless as they are used to define goals, there is a constant need to rise above expectations. To paraphrase one executive, D&I is a process and not just a checkbox.
Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#27Why should we hire anyone based off the color of their skin/gender, versus for their level of competency? If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. Further, isn’t it a bit patronizing hiring people because they fit in a URM group, instead of hard work to sufficiently pass an interview/test/etc?
I see the misunderstanding that D&I is about priority hiring based on certain characteristics over and above merit crop up a distressing amount. Every initiative that I have taken part in has explicitly abjured such action; it's illegal in our country and in any case arguably a bad idea anywhere. What it is instead is a forum for trying to identify, discuss and address where existing pratices are unwittingly biased.…
> What it is instead is a forum for trying to identify, discuss and address where existing pratices are unwittingly biased.
For example, do the statistics of progression and departure in our organisation show any areas in which we're failing certain subgroups? Does our publicity reach everyone we want it to and carry the message that we intend? Do our processes inadvertently cause physical or mental difficulty to anyone?
This is a fantastic statement of what a program should be. And I'm totally going to us it to describe ours.
Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#28Why should we hire anyone based off the color of their skin/gender, versus for their level of competency? If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. Further, isn’t it a bit patronizing hiring people because they fit in a URM group, instead of hard work to sufficiently pass an interview/test/etc?
> If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. This is only true if the company has a real product that customers pay for. If the company is based on "growth and engagement" then there is no real product and their survival merely depends on investor goodwill for which PR and virtue-signalling is important (th…
I agree, however the companies that have a real product will survive longer on average. A real product has a better chance of enduring hardships (bear market/recession) than investor-funded growth companies. We haven’t seen how today’s tech investments will change during a real economic downturn. Last one we had was arguably over 10 years ago.
But with the top X% having far more capital, we may continue to see investments, even in bad economic times. But I think that’s unlikely.
Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
all things considered (i.e. equal performance on an interview/test/etc.) it makes better economic sense to hire more women and URMs. A cynic would say that's because it's more acceptable to pay less. But I would argue that someone who has built a successful career despite the headwinds of racism/sexism/implicit biases is going to be tougher and more resilient in the face of unexpected challenges than someone, who for…
also, I want to share that OP's original point reflects common hiring practice at my former employer, which is a federal Minority-Serving Institution (MSI) in the South (i.e. majority of students are first-generation college, immigrants, people of color) whose faculty is overwhelmingly white and predominantly male. The diversity hires, that I was aware of, tended to favor White and "model minority" candidates over eq…
Well if they’re equally or better qualified then my point still stands. They get into the company based off ability.
The issue is whose determining what the bias is, where the statistical line should be, and how it’s enforced. If this creeps into legislature it’ll be one step closer in the wrong path.
Re: Ask HN: How has Diversity and Inclusion programs impacted your company?
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If a company start optimizing on diversity metrics instead of on ability, then they’ll be crushed by market forces from companies who optimize on ability. This is only true if the company has a real product that customers pay for. If the company is based on "growth and engagement" then there is no real product and their survival merely depends on investor goodwill for which PR and virtue-signalling is important (th…
I agree, however the companies that have a real product will survive longer on average. A real product has a better chance of enduring hardships (bear market/recession) than investor-funded growth companies. We haven’t seen how today’s tech investments will change during a real economic downturn. Last one we had was arguably over 10 years ago. But with the top X% having far more capital, we may continue to see invest…
This is only true assuming your product costs nothing to run and doesn't rely on network effects, otherwise the other side will keep offering its product at a loss until you go out of business. They might themselves go out of business later, but at this point your company is already long gone so that doesn't matter.