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Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

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Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#21
post #6

Signal is open source, you and anyone else can inspect the code. You can then build it from source and install on your android directly avoiding the play store.

So how do I build the Signal server and confirm it's identical to the one they're running?

It doesn't matter if it's not. Security should depend completely on the clients. Public-key crypto allows private communication through insecure channels.

Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#22
Signal’s claim to fame here is that they were subpoenaed in 2016 and could only supply account creation and last connection times:

> The American Civil Liberties Union announced Tuesday that Open Whisper Systems (OWS), the company behind popular encrypted messaging app Signal, was subpoenaed earlier this year by a federal grand jury in the Eastern District of Virginia to hand over a slew of information—"subscriber name, addresses, telephone numbers, email addresses, method of payment"—on two of its users.

> ... “The only information responsive to the subpoena held by OWS is the time of account creation and the date of the last connection to Signal servers,” Kaufman continued, also pointing out that the company did in fact hand over this data.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/10/fbi-demands-sign...

Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#23
Well in the case of Telegram, you can trust, that they store your data on their server, because they say so.

And it is convenient, because you can just switch your smartphone and still access all your chathistory, without having to manually backup/restore.

But Telegram in general does not have a business model yet, so just assume, that one day, they want(or have) to cash out.

Signal on the other hand is a non-profit foundation and pretty open on what they are doing. That creates trust for me.

Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#24
post #15
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a somewhat misleading statement, you may know what's on your device but you don't know what is happening on the servers

Because of public-key crypto, it doesn't matter if the servers are malicious.

Assuming you have:

- read the source code and are satisfied that it's secure

- compiled that version of the code

- installed it on your mobile or desktop

You're still only as secure as the client on the other side of the conversation.

If that one is compromised (has not gone throught the steps above) it could very well be sending all messages in clear text to a malicious party.

Edit: formatting

Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#25
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of public-key crypto, it doesn't matter if the servers are malicious.

not true with respect to meta data

which I don't think is as concerning, but is there a particular piece of metadata that concerns you?

Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#26
Signal and the ACLU sued and were granted permission to release sealed warrant data from a previous law enforcement request for user data.

As of mid-2016, and trusted as much as you feel like trusting something attested in a court of law, Signal stores: a bool (is this phone number a user) and two ints (epoch of signup, epoch of last transmission).

https://www.aclu.org/open-whisper-systems-subpoena-documents

Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#27
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do I build the Signal server and confirm it's identical to the one they're running?

It doesn't matter if it's not. Security should depend completely on the clients. Public-key crypto allows private communication through insecure channels.

That's not going to be true of metadata, though. A malicious server could keep a lot of valuable metadata about you.

Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#28
Telegram is storing your message content in their cloud for „cloud chats“ (default), as those are not end-to-end encrypted.

Telegram‘s „secret chats“ and signal chats are end-to-end encrypted. The servers still may store metadata, and there is no way to tell if they do than either joining them or let a trusted third party verify that.

To check if e2e encrypted message content cannot be encrypted via backdoors on their servers, you need to ensure they use proven encryption schemes and the client encryption does correspond to those algorithms.

Re: Ask HN: How do we know Signal or Telegram don't store our data on their servers?

#30
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do I build the Signal server and confirm it's identical to the one they're running?

It doesn't matter if it's not. Security should depend completely on the clients. Public-key crypto allows private communication through insecure channels.

No, it does. In some cases (think dictatorship) - you not only want the secret police to not read your messages - you don't want them to know at all, who are you talking to(and how often and when!). Otherwise you might all go to jail (or worse), if they are after one contact of yours. And then you can try to feel save, that they don't know your encryption password.

https://xkcd.com/538/

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