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Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

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Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#21

Post by fennecfoxen »

neural99 wrote: post #3

I’m not sure what you’ll gain from this question other than political comments. Some will say no because of possible tariffs the EU could apply to sales into the Eu. It tends to forget that the rest of the world exists. Some will say yes given the UK now has the ability to reduce taxes, invest in areas that it couldn’t before and provide competitive opportunities which anyone in the EU couldn’t So it’s really down to…

I’m going to be modestly cynical here. I don’t think they will take advantage, not for a decade or three minimum. The Tories were foolish enough that they thought Brexit was a path to prosperity to begin with, and Labour is allergic to anything not owned by the state, at some points proposing expropriations in the power sector which were exciting enough to get pension funds to move money to special vehicles in Asia with treaties saying the UK won’t expropriate their holdings.

The biggest macro thing would be free trade treaties with markets like the US and Asia (obviously including China, but elsewhere too) and streamlining regulatory standards to be efficient - not to be all “oh no the big capitalists will exploit everyone,” just better targeted and less bureaucratic; you can glimpse this in the way the UK was first to approve vaccines for covid.

But all that has to compete with maintaining trade access to the EU and that’s a huge barrier if it remains and a huge loss if it doesn’t.

What’s supposed to make startups and tech more competitive there now? Maybe if the Euro collapses in a banking crisis somehow (?!?) but I’m not seeing it.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#22

Post by rich_sasha »

I saw a list of European unicorns (on HN in fact I think) and probably about 2/3 were UK/London based. That’s right now. The other ones are scattered around, so this might be your best bet in this part of the world.

As another comment says, you’ll mostly get political comments, so here goes: UK universities, while still very good, are dropping quite significantly in various league tables since Brexit. This is for a range of reasons: non-UK applicants now get a full US-style price, with little support or loans. They are less attractive for academics too. 2/3 of UK unis dropped since the Brexit votes, Cambridge is at a historical low of 7th in the world, behind ETH. Student visas are sth like £1000 per year on top of that. If you think this will continue, and talented and driven young people will choose other countries, this will extinguish, in the long term, the supply of talent to startups and tech.

UK’s attitude to immigration will also be unpredictable. On the one hand, it states that it is keen to attract talent etc, on the other hand visas will be largely awarded based on salaries (maybe not so good for early stage startups). Also there are no guarantees that eg the partner of a visa taker will be awarded one, or that visas will be extended. This is another reason why people might give the Uk a wide berth - and these would be potentially your cofounders, colleagues, investors.

On the flip side, finance was thought to leave London en masse, and didn’t. Banks etc established a presence in EU countries, but most of the business logic staff are actually staying out.

Also UK is at heart a country of innovation, where novelty and innovation are welcome, and entrepreneurship runs in the blood, more so than in many other places. Brexit won’t change that.

So... who knows? I’m an EU citizen, now also British and well settled here. I like it, but probably wouldn’t choose it now.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#23

Post by patrickdet »

0xy wrote: post #12
thr0waway2 wrote: post #2

London wasn't that great when it comes to tech jobs compared to US/Canada. Starting salary for grads at FANGs is around a third of what it is at large US cities when living costs are no more than 30-40% lower for example. Compared to rest of Europe London is a lot better with notable exception of Switzerland which is a non-EU country. So to me it would seem that membership in EU is not a necessary condition for good…

London beats any European city by a substantial amount, even including cost of living. I don't see why that would change. Switzerland as you point out has similarly high wages. I can't see innovation, talent or companies moving to the EU at any stage. It's a regulatory horror show and has massive brain drain to places that actually pay developers reasonable wages. Developers in Sweden are paid the equivalent of 51k U…

> Developers in the EU get shafted big time. Free health insurance is not worth half, or even one-third the salary.

It’s called solidarity

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#24

Post by Nursie »

mfDjB wrote: post #15

I moved to London to do a startup in December 2019. All I can say is do not do this. The government during covid has been horribly inefficient, I just received my NHS ID in the last month (taking upwards of a year to process, during which time they denied me covid testing after I had the necessary symptoms) and I received my NINO 6 months after moving here, however now with covid they aren't even processing these any…

I don't think undoing the GDPR would be doing "the right thing", personally. I'm hoping that's legislation we keep for the time being, until we can figure out how to do it better. But fundamentally it's pulling in the right direction.

You're right that in a lot of the UK software folks are viewed as 'beneath' the management and business types though, and not valued in the same way as they are in other economies. Useless arseholes with few worthwhile skills can get paid a ton if they can talk themselves into a position as a delivery manager or project manager.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#25

Post by starfallg »

As a Canadian based in the UK for nearly 20 years, I'm making plans to go back to Canada or join family in the US.

London is expensive compared to Canadian cities, even Vancouver, but pay for tech workers is comparable, if not a bit lower than in Canada. The US has higher pay than both, but it's only about 30% and you have more cost out of pocket, especially healthcare.

Much of the energy in London in the past 20-30 years is driven by EU nationals. A lot of multinationals and tech companies are based in the south-east to access this talent pool. Many companies have whole teams based in London serving the respective European markets (French speaking, Germans speaking, Italian speaking, etc.). This will change in the next decade or so.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#26

Post by mfDjB »

Nursie wrote: post #24
mfDjB wrote: post #15

I moved to London to do a startup in December 2019. All I can say is do not do this. The government during covid has been horribly inefficient, I just received my NHS ID in the last month (taking upwards of a year to process, during which time they denied me covid testing after I had the necessary symptoms) and I received my NINO 6 months after moving here, however now with covid they aren't even processing these any…

I don't think undoing the GDPR would be doing "the right thing", personally. I'm hoping that's legislation we keep for the time being, until we can figure out how to do it better. But fundamentally it's pulling in the right direction. You're right that in a lot of the UK software folks are viewed as 'beneath' the management and business types though, and not valued in the same way as they are in other economies. Usel…

In regards to GDPR, I agree it's the right thing for consumers, but it puts compliance pressure on startups. So from the perspective of a startup, I could see its removal being a positive.

(Note that is just from the perspective of a startup)

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#28

Post by hcayless »

That’s certainly the hope of some in the government, though I’m not sure if I’d count on them to execute in supporting it. A lot of services based in the UK/London were there because it was a natural gateway to Europe, and that will no longer be the case since the new deal just struck doesn’t include them from what I understand. I see more downsides than upsides at the moment.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#29

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

0xy wrote: post #12
thr0waway2 wrote: post #2

London wasn't that great when it comes to tech jobs compared to US/Canada. Starting salary for grads at FANGs is around a third of what it is at large US cities when living costs are no more than 30-40% lower for example. Compared to rest of Europe London is a lot better with notable exception of Switzerland which is a non-EU country. So to me it would seem that membership in EU is not a necessary condition for good…

London beats any European city by a substantial amount, even including cost of living. I don't see why that would change. Switzerland as you point out has similarly high wages. I can't see innovation, talent or companies moving to the EU at any stage. It's a regulatory horror show and has massive brain drain to places that actually pay developers reasonable wages. Developers in Sweden are paid the equivalent of 51k U…

Finland, Sweden, and Denmark have a much healthier startup scene than the UK does. You can also go further afield and explore places like Lisbon, which have a growing buzz.

In some ways they have a much healthier startup scene than SV does.

You won't earn $400k - guaranteed until the restructuring and breakup layoffs hit - but you will be happier and less stressed, and your kids will be too. And you won't be living in a city that has become a dystopian nightmare.

If you're all about the money then of course you won't get what's cool about the EU.

And that's fine. Because not only do companies have cultural fit, so do countries.

Re: Ask HN: Relocating to London After Brexit

#30

Post by pasabagi »

djaahk wrote: post #8
thr0waway2 wrote: post #2

London wasn't that great when it comes to tech jobs compared to US/Canada. Starting salary for grads at FANGs is around a third of what it is at large US cities when living costs are no more than 30-40% lower for example. Compared to rest of Europe London is a lot better with notable exception of Switzerland which is a non-EU country. So to me it would seem that membership in EU is not a necessary condition for good…

I always feel like salary comparisons are a little biased by a slightly US-centric definition of a comfortable lifestyle (e.g. including a car, parking, bigger house requirements, etc) as well as underestimating some built-in benefits of other countries like free healthcare. Are there good sources out there that would afford a holistic cost comparison of a typical London lifestyle (Tube, 1-bedroom in Zone 1-2, weeken…

I get the impression US salaries usually come out way ahead for software people (in other fields, not so much).

The only point where it starts to get questionable is when you consider stuff like, how much would you pay to live in a city that doesn't have needles all over the sidewalks, or, what is the value of living in a society that isn't brutally unfair and visibly dystopian?

Personally, I put a pretty high value on abstract stuff like fraternity and equality, and I feel like it has a really good effect on quality-of-life, but I can also see why people just go for the biggest paycheck. If you're planning on living in a kind of bubble, and just ignore the wider social context, you don't really need to live in a functioning society.

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