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Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

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Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#21

Post by jlokier »

parliament32 wrote: post #9

By using your conversation metadata, to sell you better ads or sell the data to other advertisers. >b-b-but it's encrypted! Doesn't matter. They know who you are, because your account is linked to your FB account (either directly or just by matching your phone number). Then you send them your full contact list when you install the app (have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission?). Then they can see…

> have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission?

Yes, that's how I use WhatsApp. It sucks because all I see is conversations and calls from phone numbers without names.

But I don't trust WhatsApp enough to share my whole contacts list with them.

I would be happy to grant permission for individual number-name associations to be visible to WhatsApp, if that was possible. It's the contacts list as a whole I'm not willing to share; the people I'm actually talking with on it would be fine.

But no, we can't have sensible things like that.

Showing the numbers is very silly, because WhatsApp knows the name of every person I'm talking with. It has their name from the person at other end! But no, it has to use the Dark Pattern(tm) of showing numbers to pressure me into sharing all my contacts, which it doesn't actually need.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#22

Post by hbcondo714 »

parliament32 wrote: post #9

By using your conversation metadata, to sell you better ads or sell the data to other advertisers. >b-b-but it's encrypted! Doesn't matter. They know who you are, because your account is linked to your FB account (either directly or just by matching your phone number). Then you send them your full contact list when you install the app (have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission?). Then they can see…

>b-b-but it's encrypted!

Facebook actually updated their LIMITATIONS OF KEY METRICS AND OTHER DATA section at the top of their annual and quarterly reports[1] this year to say that "as a result of limited visibility into encrypted products, we have fewer data signals from WhatsApp user accounts and primarily rely on phone numbers and device information to match WhatsApp user accounts with accounts on our other products". Prior to 2020, did they not disclose this in their reports.

[1] https://last10k.com/sec-filings/fb

disclosure: I work on Last10K.com

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#23

Post by mkl95 »

lozf wrote: post #20
mkl95 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, I don't think they get much value from encrypted content. This doesn't mean they can't log every single thing you do with a timestamp attached to it. Privacy and anonymity are not the same thing.

Yes, they also get location (coarse or fine), media type (text chat, voice or video call), duration, any attachments sent (probably including file type, name and size, and frequency of contact, - all timestamped as you say.

Interesting! My guess is FB has built a microservice ecosystem for Whatsapp to call home with all this data.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#24

Post by parliament32 »

hbcondo714 wrote: post #22
parliament32 wrote: post #9

By using your conversation metadata, to sell you better ads or sell the data to other advertisers. >b-b-but it's encrypted! Doesn't matter. They know who you are, because your account is linked to your FB account (either directly or just by matching your phone number). Then you send them your full contact list when you install the app (have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission?). Then they can see…

>b-b-but it's encrypted! Facebook actually updated their LIMITATIONS OF KEY METRICS AND OTHER DATA section at the top of their annual and quarterly reports[1] this year to say that "as a result of limited visibility into encrypted products, we have fewer data signals from WhatsApp user accounts and primarily rely on phone numbers and device information to match WhatsApp user accounts with accounts on our other produc…

Yes, we can all agree that E2EE means FB isn't reading your messages and using that data (like they do, for example, in FB Messenger / IG messages). But the metadata is still valuable, and not encrypted, and is probably how they're making money with the product.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#25

Post by ThePhysicist »

newswasboring wrote: post #7
mkl95 wrote: post #5

Whatsapp didn't have end-to-end encryption until April 2016. The app used to cost €0.89 per year (which I guess was $1 at the time). I'd be surprised if Facebook had bought WhatsApp looking for revenue. Even if the service is operating at a loss, it's still providing FB the messages (at the very least, their metadata) and personal data of two billion people.

How will they get any messages if they are end to end encrypted?

All it would take them is one software update.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#26

Post by hbcondo714 »

parliament32 wrote: post #24
hbcondo714 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>b-b-but it's encrypted! Facebook actually updated their LIMITATIONS OF KEY METRICS AND OTHER DATA section at the top of their annual and quarterly reports[1] this year to say that "as a result of limited visibility into encrypted products, we have fewer data signals from WhatsApp user accounts and primarily rely on phone numbers and device information to match WhatsApp user accounts with accounts on our other produc…

Yes, we can all agree that E2EE means FB isn't reading your messages and using that data (like they do, for example, in FB Messenger / IG messages). But the metadata is still valuable, and not encrypted, and is probably how they're making money with the product.

I can't attest to this metadata but it's just worthy to note Facebook starting telling shareholders this year that they have "limited visibility into WhatsApp user activity due to encryption".

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#27

Post by sliq »

There is this THEORY (!) WhatApp is actually cross-financed by governments, so it can stay online as the biggest communication surveillance "device" in human history. We are talking about a 100% uptime free service that literally has become the center of human remote communication in major parts of the world.

Encryption is a shady topic, and there is a realistic chance there is a backdoor in the methods WhatApp uses to encrypt content, history has shown this is realistic.

Governments have done way worse things.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#28

Post by dirkt »

By being part of Facebook, gathering data about whom you communicate with (that works even with end-to-end encryption), combining this with the profile Facebook has about you, and selling this data to third parties.

By using WhatsApp, you become their product, and they are making money with you.

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#29

Post by sliq »

Barrin92 wrote: post #12
parliament32 wrote: post #9

By using your conversation metadata, to sell you better ads or sell the data to other advertisers. >b-b-but it's encrypted! Doesn't matter. They know who you are, because your account is linked to your FB account (either directly or just by matching your phone number). Then you send them your full contact list when you install the app (have you tried using WhatsApp without the Contacts permission?). Then they can see…

At least in Europe that is not true, from their official page "We do not share data for improving Facebook products on Facebook and providing more relevant Facebook ad experiences.Today, Facebook does not use your WhatsApp account information to improve your Facebook product experiences or provide you more relevant Facebook ad experiences on Facebook. This is a result of discussions with the Irish Data Protection Com…

What they say in official text is not automatically what they actually do. Example: maybe they dont sell data to Facebook, but to a middle-man company. And this company sells to Facebook. Disclaimer texts are shady things!

Re: Ask HN: How does WhatsApp make money?

#30

Post by the_arun »

rodonn wrote: post #6
the_arun wrote: post #4

My speculation - Facebook might mine the conversation data & sell that to third party/show targeted ads on Facebook.

Whatsapp is end to end encrypted. Facebook is not able to see the contents of Whataspp messages.

end-to-end encrypted with encryption key managed by WhatsApp/FB. Users don't own the key.
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