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Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

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Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#21

Post by teknopaul »

lpfabiani wrote: post #7

I worked for a while in the R&D department of HP printer division. As @jacquesm said, good 2D printer costs peanuts. The amount of R&D in color quality, speed and other parameters is huge. There were a lot of teams involved: mechanical, electrical, software, chemical... And because of that investment, there are thousands of patents that the big players are continuously paying each other for. It's a very old market wi…

bit of a non-argument this. Existence of cheap alternatives misses the point of opensource, its not about cost. ref: free as in beer vs free as in speech.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#22

Post by teknopaul »

PeterisP wrote: post #12

First, accurate and reliable mechanical manipulation of paper is tricky, to get all kinds of different paper stock to feed reliably without jams and position in the same place. Second, decent reproduction of e.g. text at decent DPI requires more accuracy in head positioning than what you need for basic 3d printing. So to me it seems that the big issue is not that a random cheap standard printer would be cheaper, but…

Big point about OS for me is hackability what if instead of printing ink on paper you want to print fungi spores on jelly.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#23

Post by ragebol »

A FDM 3D printer is mechanically relatively simple; it's more akin to a 3D plotter: it's a vector thing. Household 2D printers do bitmaps.

There's 3D bitmap printers as well, like the SLA resin printers and laser sintering.

The bitmap thing at a high resolution requires higher precision equipment than a typical 3D printer which makes it more difficult to do as a hobbyist. Not impossible, but a factor.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#24

Post by pritovido »

You answered your question with "apart from the nozzle"

It is the nozzle. Everything else is very simple to make because it is already done for 3d printers that are more complex than 2d printers(if you do not consider the nozzle).

5 years or so ago I made a 2d plotter with friends at my 3d printers community with the reverse engineering knowledge that we had about a specific cartridge with nozzles on it.

Printing with ink was easy, very easy. But we were interested in using it for 3d print wax, not so easy.

You need to manufacture nozzles, and that requires lots of money. That requires manufacturing plants. Very cheap in volume, but requires volume.

Open source has not volume in the millions, like big companies have, and those companies are not going to sell you the nozzles so you commoditize their professional field like linux did.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#25

Post by wccrawford »

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #11
detaro wrote: post #6

Printers are cheap and widely available, which leaves a DIY printer which is going to be slower, more error-prone and more expensive as a very niche idea. There is a clear benefit to buying or building an open hobby 3D printer, whereas that's harder to argue for a 2D one - while there is a lot of crap around, there's enough workable choices, aftermarket inks/toner works, you likely won't be modifying/tuning a 2D prin…

I also wouldn't underestimate the challenge of moving paper. I once spoke to someone who worked for Kodak (or a similar company - it was a long time ago) who said that they acquired another printer company purely because their paper moving technology was excellent and it would have taken years to develop an equivalent quality of engineering internally. This was before the present day race to the bottom in the printer…

While I'm sure it's a challenge, after watching 3D printers evolve over the years, I've no doubt that random people will find unique and amazing ways to handle the problem.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#26

Post by teknopaul »

teknopaul wrote: post #22
PeterisP wrote: post #12

First, accurate and reliable mechanical manipulation of paper is tricky, to get all kinds of different paper stock to feed reliably without jams and position in the same place. Second, decent reproduction of e.g. text at decent DPI requires more accuracy in head positioning than what you need for basic 3d printing. So to me it seems that the big issue is not that a random cheap standard printer would be cheaper, but…

Big point about OS for me is hackability what if instead of printing ink on paper you want to print fungi spores on jelly.

or names on birthday cakes. cutting guides on wood. UV paint on metal. Jokes on toilet roll :)

thinking there might be mileage in this idea. clearly a mod from a 3D printer design would be where to start. standardise ink delivery / modules for different materials with different characteristics. A standardised printer driver for Linux and other platforms would get a lot or re-us.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#27

Post by manyxcxi »

detaro wrote: post #17
marcus_holmes wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a relatively new owner of a 3D printer, cost has very little to do with it. I spent way more on upgrading and tinkering with my printer than the thing cost in the first place. If there was a 2D equivalent, I'd be interested in tinkering with that, too. And yes, that would probably mean spending 5x ot 10x more than a cheap commercial printer to get a printer than underperformed said cheap commercial printer. But it…

Would you do that tinkering if you could just buy a 3D printer cheaply that didn't need upgrading and worked perfectly? You can probably adapt a printhead from a printer to your 3D printer today if you want a crappy DIY 2D printer and go from there.

I got into it specifically because you can get good printers cheap. There is a manufacturer that offers an open source based printer that was better than it had any reason to be for less than $300.

My printer today looks nothing like the printer I started with, I’ve switched boards, recompiled my own firmware, the whole bit. I was confident in hacking on it for two reasons:

1) It was open source based

2) Replacement parts are inexpensive

I originally started with a Makerbot 2X which was closed source and $2500 (8+ years ago). Mind you, I didn’t have one at home- we had a couple at work for prototyping.

The slicing software was atrocious, the ability to fix it was hampered by what parts they sold, and the replacement parts were generally very expensive.

My $250 printer was better in every objective measure out of the box than the MakerBot was after years of practice and tuning.

This year my friend’s 2X died and a replacement motherboard was going to be almost as much as the cost of my printer new so he just gave it to me and bought a new printer.

With my newfound confidence from my “cheap” printer, I gutted the 2X and installed an open source motherboard and completely rewired it.

It all started with a printer good enough to be liked by the community and open enough to be modifiable.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#28

Post by marcus_holmes »

detaro wrote: post #17
marcus_holmes wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a relatively new owner of a 3D printer, cost has very little to do with it. I spent way more on upgrading and tinkering with my printer than the thing cost in the first place. If there was a 2D equivalent, I'd be interested in tinkering with that, too. And yes, that would probably mean spending 5x ot 10x more than a cheap commercial printer to get a printer than underperformed said cheap commercial printer. But it…

Would you do that tinkering if you could just buy a 3D printer cheaply that didn't need upgrading and worked perfectly? You can probably adapt a printhead from a printer to your 3D printer today if you want a crappy DIY 2D printer and go from there.

Good question.

I run Linux (and on a Purism laptop so I can take it apart if I want to), so I guess I've made that choice already in a different context - "yes".

I haven't tried it, but I expect a commercial print head to be extremely specialised and adapted to the specifics of the printer it's in. And of course no documentation on what the connections are or how it hangs together. I think it'd be above my skill level to get this working.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#29

Post by minot »

sparkling wrote: post #19

Here is a business idea: the printer that just works. Requirements: - laser printer that works with non-proprietary toners - USB plug & play on all major operating systems - Network printing via WiFi and ethernet - No 2GB bloatware installation required, i dont want your shitty photo management software, just give me the driver - Replaceable parts

Brother is probably your best bet.

Re: Ask HN: Why are there no open source 2d printers?

#30

Post by sokoloff »

sparkling wrote: post #19

Here is a business idea: the printer that just works. Requirements: - laser printer that works with non-proprietary toners - USB plug & play on all major operating systems - Network printing via WiFi and ethernet - No 2GB bloatware installation required, i dont want your shitty photo management software, just give me the driver - Replaceable parts

I bought an HP3600N about 15 years ago for something like $700. I’m not 100% sure if it has USB because it hangs off my network (which then Ubiquiti devices provide WiFi). It’s worked reliably and 3rd party toner is readily available and works well. If a major component wore out or failed, it would probably be cheaper to replace the unit than the part, but parts are technically available. I’ve had an excellent networked color laser at home for around $75/yr including toner.
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