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Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

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Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#21

Post by rhcom2 »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #14

Slightly off-topic: how do blind programmers read code? Does the screen reader recite it aloud and just say "int main left-paren void right-paren open-brace int i equals zero...", or does it use some other kind of auditory vocabulary to make it more meaningful to the listener? I've been thinking about this alot lately because I've been wondering how I could get better at programming while driving on my daily commute.

How about a podcast about programming subjects? Would probably be more beneficial and less distracting than trying to write code while driving.

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#22

Post by geofft »

SilasX wrote: post #12

>Making whitespace-sensitive syntax, like in Python & Haskell, optional syntactic sugar for explicit brackets & separators. That shouldn't matter with an IDE or plugin. If static analysis can identify the blocks -- and it has to! -- the screen reader can just read it as if it had your preferred block notation rather than noting the whitespace.

That's usually true but a lot of code in the middle of being edited isn't syntactically valid (a common special case is a file in the middle of a merge conflict). So you need some way of being able to accept any input and represent it usefully, even if you couldn't execute it.

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#23

Post by Teknoman117 »

One of the software engineers where I work is completely blind. I've never had a chance to interact with him as he's in a remote office unfortunately. He mainly writes in Python, bash, and C.

From what I understand, every project he works on has strict formatting requirements (can't commit until the linter passes, etc.) and his screen reader is programming language aware.

Although, to be honest, I feel that the thing he relies on most is his rather amazing ability to remember most of the exact contents of whatever file he's working on.

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#24

Post by cortesoft »

AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #14

Slightly off-topic: how do blind programmers read code? Does the screen reader recite it aloud and just say "int main left-paren void right-paren open-brace int i equals zero...", or does it use some other kind of auditory vocabulary to make it more meaningful to the listener? I've been thinking about this alot lately because I've been wondering how I could get better at programming while driving on my daily commute.

The blind people I have known use a Braille display to work with a computer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refreshable_braille_display

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#26

Post by dep_b »

informatimago wrote: post #20

Lisp: - Avoids the use of gratuituous special characters: (a b c) - use-dashes-in-symbol-names-instead-of-underline-so-its-easier-to-type (you can still use underlines or most any special character, but we like to keep it simple and easy). - has a simple prefix syntax, that makes it easier to read and understand complex expressions: (loop (print (read (eval))) So no risk of confusing special characters or syntax: the…

> is not whitespace-sensitive, how can you see the size of whitespaces when you're blind?

Can't indentation be handled by the IDE as having a meaning like "root class declaration", "function declaration", "nested block 1", "nested block 2"? Indentation has meaning and meaning can be converted. Even Xcode seems to be context aware as I can choose where certain code block shortcuts can or can't be executed. "This is a function", "This is a class", "This is a function in a class", "This is the root level", "This is a block one deep inside a function inside a class".

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#27

Post by kd0amg »

SilasX wrote: post #12

>Making whitespace-sensitive syntax, like in Python & Haskell, optional syntactic sugar for explicit brackets & separators. That shouldn't matter with an IDE or plugin. If static analysis can identify the blocks -- and it has to! -- the screen reader can just read it as if it had your preferred block notation rather than noting the whitespace.

Does that mean you need a screen reader that knows about whatever programming language you use?

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#28

Post by mygo »

Sure this problem can be addressed at the language layer, but as you've alluded to, I think it would be more applicable to address this issue at the text-editor / IDE layer or even the build tools.

There's tons of IDEs that make developers better at coding, with things like automatic syntax checking, refactoring, inline debugging, autocomplete, etc. Would it make more sense to develop a developing environment that makes disabled developers better at coding, with whatever features would make their experience better?

It would probably be easier to get a disabled developer to use your editor than to get a disabled developer to use your language. From what I can gather, it's hard enough to get employment as it is for them (maybe they can only work remote, or maybe they can be physically in the office but they're blind). I'm not sure if they have the luxury of being able to choose what language they get to use. But I'm sure their employers would allow them to use the IDE & tooling that works for them so long as they output code that fits the company stack.

Re: Ask HN: How should a programming language accommodate disabled programmers?

#30

Post by jobigoud »

rhcom2 wrote: post #21
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #14

Slightly off-topic: how do blind programmers read code? Does the screen reader recite it aloud and just say "int main left-paren void right-paren open-brace int i equals zero...", or does it use some other kind of auditory vocabulary to make it more meaningful to the listener? I've been thinking about this alot lately because I've been wondering how I could get better at programming while driving on my daily commute.

How about a podcast about programming subjects? Would probably be more beneficial and less distracting than trying to write code while driving.

Tangentially related, I've been listening to The Blind Side, a podcast about technology made by a blind person. It's interesting to learn tricks that don't require vision to interact with tech.
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