Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 31 posts

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#21

Post by supernice_storm »

sbr464 wrote: post #19
supernice_storm wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how would we move past those? We did. It just turns out digital > mechanical. Thanks to Shannon and many others, we figured out we should 'pack more' into tinier spaces (circuits [0]), using less symbols (binary [1]). Another such leap would require moving past current limits of physics understanding. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor#Comparison_with_vac... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69-YUSazuic…

That’s my precise question, does digital === electronic? If true, how do Claude Shannon’s (numerous) contributions become relevant in the absence of electricity?

>does digital === electronic?

I had never thought about that. But someone has: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-electroni...

>relevant in the absence of electricity?

Theory is independent from practice or implementation. A logic gate is a logic gate whether you model it with wires, water channels, or whatever else. Regardless of perceived 'relevance':

>The value of knowledge is not statically predefined

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#22

Post by hyperpallium »

Before computers, "computers" were people.

It was a job title for numerical calculation.

It's a curious thing, but numerical computing predates computers. One striking linguistic feature is that in computational fluid dynamics (a kind of numerical computation), a method of calculation is called "a code". Whereas, for software development, a program's specific instructions are called "code". The CFD usage wrong to me, but since they were first... maybe we were the monsters all along?

In the future, we may have cellular/biochemical computation, or quantum calculation, or calculation based on some other phenonema (neutrinos?), perhaps not yet discovered.

Meanwhile, there's a pedantic argument that all known computation is really "electrical" (including human neuron pulses).

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#23

Post by ebcode »

sbr464 wrote: post #17
jstewartmobile wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would help the thread to get a tighter definition of what would qualify as programming. If having the operator manually re-configure parts counts as programming, then we've probably already achieved purely mechanical value. If we set the bar a little higher to a bonafide Turing machine, then I think you've thrown down the gauntlet.

To be honest, I had been pondering about how I personally put so much energy in learning, exploring software etc, yet it seems to depend on, at it’s core, a few other important innovations. It’s like saying I’m a speech therapist, but Darwin decides not to bring a mouth, tongue, or hands to write with. When the lights go out, is it relevant?

Well sure it is. Those dependencies you're talking about (the transistor, keyboards, screens, etc -- the things that modern computing depend on) are just the current, and I would say arbitrary, implementation of the concept of "computing".

A lot of the real early work in computing was done by George Boole, before Shannon picked up where he left off. That kind of stuff (boolean algebra, information theory) will always be relevant... (to survival in ye enden times? maybe not) and it doesn't involve electricity.

Just as I imagine that the things that you learn as a speech therapist go way deeper than just helping kids with their lisps.

It's easy to get caught up in the current fads and stay on the surface (e.g. programming languages, or frameworks) of the computing field, and maybe what you're experiencing is a kind of existential dread about the meaning of the work you're doing. But I think if you stick with it and go deep, you'll find that "computing" is a fundamental aspect of the universe.

And if the lights do go out, then maybe everything you learned while "studying computers" will be of help in figuring out how to get them back on again... Or, better yet, help you to realize that you didn't actually need the lights in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#24

Post by malux85 »

Yes, it teaches you problem solving.

Concepts like encapsulation can be applied to business units - when you see communication between people I see API's/Interface boundaries.

Debugging has provided me with an "introspection" capability where I can step logically through a problem and divide and conquer an issue into smaller steps.

I used the binary search algorithm to eliminate causes in a chemical system I was debugging once - people who do not know binary search would have almost certainly tried exhaustive enumeration, which is much slower and resource intensive.

System programming shows you the importance of buffers, backpressure and feedback loops, I use this to manage cash flow through my company.

Programming is actually learning to think. The "coding" aspect is just an implementation.

Once you get some serious experience programming (you get past learning all the syntax and learn a few different languages) the abstract concepts become clearer, and you can apply them anywhere

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#25

Post by sbr464 »

hyperpallium wrote: post #22

Before computers, "computers" were people. It was a job title for numerical calculation. It's a curious thing, but numerical computing predates computers. One striking linguistic feature is that in computational fluid dynamics (a kind of numerical computation), a method of calculation is called "a code". Whereas, for software development, a program's specific instructions are called "code". The CFD usage wrong to me,…

Thanks for this. It’s interesting personally to see my own menatal limitations placed on the term “electricity”.

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#26

Post by sbr464 »

supernice_storm wrote: post #21
sbr464 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s my precise question, does digital === electronic? If true, how do Claude Shannon’s (numerous) contributions become relevant in the absence of electricity?

>does digital === electronic? I had never thought about that. But someone has: https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-electroni... >relevant in the absence of electricity? Theory is independent from practice or implementation. A logic gate is a logic gate whether you model it with wires, water channels, or whatever else. Regardless of perceived 'relevance': >The value of knowledge is not statically predef…

Thanks for that link

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#27

Post by sbr464 »

malux85 wrote: post #24

Yes, it teaches you problem solving. Concepts like encapsulation can be applied to business units - when you see communication between people I see API's/Interface boundaries. Debugging has provided me with an "introspection" capability where I can step logically through a problem and divide and conquer an issue into smaller steps. I used the binary search algorithm to eliminate causes in a chemical system I was debu…

I like this reference. I recently was researching ancient military strategies and trying to link them up with or gain knowledge to apply in software. I think there is a lot to gain still from forgotten lessons.

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#28

Post by malux85 »

sbr464 wrote: post #27
malux85 wrote: post #24

Yes, it teaches you problem solving. Concepts like encapsulation can be applied to business units - when you see communication between people I see API's/Interface boundaries. Debugging has provided me with an "introspection" capability where I can step logically through a problem and divide and conquer an issue into smaller steps. I used the binary search algorithm to eliminate causes in a chemical system I was debu…

I like this reference. I recently was researching ancient military strategies and trying to link them up with or gain knowledge to apply in software. I think there is a lot to gain still from forgotten lessons.

Absolutely! The Art of War is excellent for general strategy. I've found it good as an abstract strategy book and have applied it to negotiations and business, but because it's so general it might be a bit of a stretch to get programming strategy out of it.

Re: Ask HN: Does programming have any value outside of electronic systems?

#30

Post by AnimalMuppet »

terrible_storm wrote: post #5
sbr464 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how would you execute or run said functions? Or to clarify, outside of theoretical execution? To do actual work or perform tasks, that would provide value to a lamen/normal person/small business etc?

Example: adding numbers with domino tiles, or other such mechanical computing.

An abacus. It uses algorithms, too.
Post reply on HN