Earlier quoted context omitted.
As I understand it, with ISO's, the options generally need to expire within a small number of months after an employee leaves. Regardless of the particulars, in every case I'm familiar with (myself and friends), leaving the company requires you to exercise options or walk. Vesting gives you the right to exercise. It doesn't do anything else for you.
I think I get it, so when you said "shell out some cash to keep your exposure to the company's upside" you mean buy the options for the value you were granted them (the "strike price" I think). Is that right?
Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
21–30 of 31 posts
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#22Earlier quoted context omitted.
As I understand it, with ISO's, the options generally need to expire within a small number of months after an employee leaves. Regardless of the particulars, in every case I'm familiar with (myself and friends), leaving the company requires you to exercise options or walk. Vesting gives you the right to exercise. It doesn't do anything else for you.
I think I get it, so when you said "shell out some cash to keep your exposure to the company's upside" you mean buy the options for the value you were granted them (the "strike price" I think). Is that right?
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#23Congratulations! Vest in peace. Now, it's been a while since I've had to think about any of this, but I'll try to answer your questions: ISOs (Incentive Stock Options) are options that do not carry a tax burden. Meaning, if you exercise your options (purchase them at the strike price) you do not have to pay taxes on any profits you make on them. Common stock is called common to differentiate it from preferred stock w…
> Meaning, if you exercise your options (purchase them at the strike price) you do not have to pay taxes on any profits you make on them. Huh? You absolutely have to pay taxes on any profit you make when you sell the shares. In addition, you may also need to pay taxes at the time of exercise on the difference between the strike price and the fair market value, in the form of AMT. http://fairmark.com/execcomp/isoexer.…
From your link, this is the point I was trying to get across:
"For purposes of the regular income tax, the exercise of an incentive stock option is a non-event. There is no tax — in fact, nothing to report on your tax return — when you exercise an ISO. This is dramatically different from the treatment of nonqualified options. Generally you report compensation income equal to the difference between the fair market value of the stock and the amount paid under the option when you exercise a nonqualified option."
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#24All of this is standard. You probably aren't getting screwed. You've been given options, not actual stock. This should not concern you. The difference between options and stock is largely a tax matter. In both cases, you've received an instrument with a very low current price that will be lucrative to you if the price appreciates (in, for instance, a takeover). When you leave the company, you'll be required to shell…
> When you leave the company, you'll be required to shell out some cash to keep your exposure to the company's upside I'm not sure what that means. He has to purchase the options in order to exercise them later? I thought once something "vested" it was yours to keep.
Since the option grant is just an offer to buy stock (vs. a stock grant which is an actual share and doesn't cost anything to sell), once you leave the company that offer to buy stock is typically rescinded after a certain period of time.
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think I get it, so when you said "shell out some cash to keep your exposure to the company's upside" you mean buy the options for the value you were granted them (the "strike price" I think). Is that right?
Well, you own the options after they vest; you exercise options in order to purchase shares. In other words, you own the right to buy shares at a specific price (that's the option), and exercising that right means actually buying those shares (generally for a price far below the current share price). You can then hold on to the shares, or turn around and sell them for an immediate profit (depending on the terms of va…
Unrestricted common stock you can keep long-term. Options, not so much.
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Meaning, if you exercise your options (purchase them at the strike price) you do not have to pay taxes on any profits you make on them. Huh? You absolutely have to pay taxes on any profit you make when you sell the shares. In addition, you may also need to pay taxes at the time of exercise on the difference between the strike price and the fair market value, in the form of AMT. http://fairmark.com/execcomp/isoexer.…
Sorry, that was very poorly worded. From your link, this is the point I was trying to get across: "For purposes of the regular income tax, the exercise of an incentive stock option is a non-event. There is no tax — in fact, nothing to report on your tax return — when you exercise an ISO. This is dramatically different from the treatment of nonqualified options. Generally you report compensation income equal to the di…
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
But AFAI understand before the IPO you can't buy anything, even if the shares are valued some value in some company to company transaction. AFAIK it's not about company being sold, it's only once it's on the market (and other conditions you have are met) that you can execute your options. Then you don't have to worry to even have the mentioned 10K USD, you'll be able to get the difference between the real price of th…
You can buy before the IPO, but you won't have anywhere to sell them. Buying before IPO is risky because you may face taxes on the difference between the strike price and fair market value, but not be able to turn any of the paper profit into actual cash to pay the taxes.
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can buy before the IPO, but you won't have anywhere to sell them. Buying before IPO is risky because you may face taxes on the difference between the strike price and fair market value, but not be able to turn any of the paper profit into actual cash to pay the taxes.
Wouldn't a website like secondmarket.com allow you to unload stock before a liquidity event? That assumes that someone would want to buy the stock from you.
See my mainline comment for more details
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#29Once I left the company with some vested options, bought them for about 500 bucks, and then got washed out in their next round of investing.
Once (like you I was employee 65 in a 70 person company) we got bought for a nice sum, and the employees all got retention packages worth, as tptacek noted, 5 figures per year served, give or take. Most of the early-in employees, who put in very long hours at the beginning, felt a bit screwed. They worked out their hourly rate for overtime spent on the company, and it came out... okay. Not great. Late arrivals like me felt just fine.
The main point I've taken from these experiences is this: when grunts like us own shares in a private company (or options to buy shares), we don't own anything real. What we own is a small piece of a partnership contract, in which we are a very underprivileged partner. If you look carefully in the partnership agreement, you will see that not all shares are created equal. There are A class, B class, C class, and so on. Each class of shares enjoys different privileges w/r to the money that comes into the company. Grunts like us get C class shares that place us at the mercy of the other two classes.
Investors and founders are senior partners in the company, and they can pretty much do what they want with your part of the contract. Your only remedy is to quit the company.
Some things companies commonly do with shares of this class:
- Take a new round of investment, and rip them up. Often this happens after a down round of fund raising. With layoffs in advance. The laid off employees lose all interest in the company (even if they bought their shares!), and the remaining employees get issued new options in the new agreement.
- See them replaced with some other incentive plan. This usually happens after a medium sized exit. Basically the buyer puts a certain amount of money on the table. The board of the company splits up the pie in some way that sort of relates to the current share agreement. Then they wash out all of the existing shares and hand out retention packages to employees and founders. The size of the packages typically relates to the size of your grant, but few people get cheques cut on the day of the sale. Most have to work for a year or two to see the payout.
Let me sum up with this: I'm not bitter! I've got way less risk in the game than investors and founders, especially as a late arrival. This is the reality of the game, and my eyes are wide open. So equity participation in a small company for me is icing on the cake. Far more important is base salary, benefits, HR policies, company culture, technology, co-workers, all that stuff. I've never chosen one company over another based on the options package. For grunts like us it rarely matters anyway.
Re: Ask HN: How exactly do stock option grants work?
#30I've been through this a few times. Three times the startup went under before exit, and the options wound up being pure fiction. Once I left the company with some vested options, bought them for about 500 bucks, and then got washed out in their next round of investing. Once (like you I was employee 65 in a 70 person company) we got bought for a nice sum, and the employees all got retention packages worth, as tptacek…
I just want to add though, presaging some people's thoughts that "they really trust the founders" and whatnot, that oftentimes the founders have little say in the outcome for non-employee stock holders. The VCs are usually calling the plays with regards to exits and valuations.
It's also worth noting that at some point during the life of many successful companies, the founders incentives are going to begin radically mismatching those of the employees; their outcome on a modest-but-successful exit will be life-changing, and the utility of the extra money they make on an exit large enough to change early employee lives won't be worth the risk. They'll want to exit as soon as they can.