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Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

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21–30 of 85 posts

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#21
I found this regulation put too much burden on small businesses.

There's a very simple way around that problem - don't ask for your user's data.

The GDPR is about making sure you do your best to protect what they share with you. If they don't need to share anything then there is no burden on you to protect anything. In my opinion this is the ideal outcome. If you gather their data then there really should be a burden on you and your business to do the necessary work to make sure you've done at least the minimum to protect what they've shared, especially if you're profiting from that data.

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#22
post #16
post #7

EU law is written so it can apply for many decades – when the precursor of the GDPR was written (1995), MD5 was considered secure. So, you should expect the "appropriate" part to mean the current state of the art to keep something secure. An "appropriate" hashing algorithm today would be bcrypt, scrypt, or potentially still a salted SHA512 with many rounds. An "appropriate" protection against unauthorised access woul…

I agree with your points. I think mostly the problem is there is no one specific place to find the list of "appropriate" methods to achieve the objective. Someone working in the infosec field could probably spit them out, but a dev may not be so up to date on such nuances.

Isn't this a risk descision based on 'could I defend this against a likely prosecution'?

In that kind of situation, you'll probably end up getting measured against something between 'industry normal practice', and 'industry ideal practice'.

If you don't expect to actually get prosecuted or audited for compliance by a client or whatever, this probably doesn't matter much.

If you do, then you should probably look at whether an infosec consultant would pay for themselves in terms of avoidng fines or winning contracts.

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#23
This might sound a little mean, and I don't mean it to be this way, but this is a really naive viewpoint.

Look at any profession -- accounting for instance -- and they have all sorts of stuff like this. As an example, there's a concept in accounting of "materiality" - basically, something that's big enough to matter. Materiality is what lets fortune 500 companies present their financial statements rounded to the nearest thousand dollars. When you're talking about tens/hundreds of millions, individual dollars just don't matter.

Whether or not something is "material" is a matter of professional judgment, to be made in the context of a large body of professional knowledge, history, prevailing industry standards, economic/cost considerations, etc, basically that thing called "experience" that we so often toss under the bus in SV.

Perhaps the biggest difference between law and code, which are in many ways quite similar, is that law is highly reliant on context. For a court to determine whether "appropriate security" and "appropriate technical measures" are followed, they would solicit testimony from experts in the field (people like us) to determine whether they felt whether someone took "appropriate security". So ultimately it's a matter of opinion, but one made with context and expertise.

It works surprisingly well.

EDIT: For really complicated stuff, implementation is often delegated to an agency, such as the FCC, to create specific guidelines like you want. But this is the job of executive action, which is easy to change, not statute (on-the-books laws), which is much harder to modify once passed.

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#24
The GDPR isn't a set of technical specs. It purposefully sets out broad guidelines and leaves the implementation to each data-handling organization. Obviously the requirements and challenges of a hospital are much different than those of an e-commerce. Therefore, it is the organization, or more precisely its DPO, that has to define what is "appropriate" to their business.

Then, according to your interests/knowledge/SOW, you can act as a security consultant who gives proactive advice, or as a contractor that develops a solution from a set of specs.

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#25
post #2

Lawyers wished to create a 'walled garden' for their knowledge and methods. Doctors do the same and the churches also did it. These people charge fees for access to this knowledge and do not want easy access to the general public. recent advances in AI endanger many jobs at law firms and medical practices and may result in fewer jobs - at law firms at least. I expect the medical and legal lobbyists will bribe our ele…

The "walled garden" is knowledge. To understand legalese, you have to know the definitions of the words. Specifically, you have to know the definitions as used by the courts. Many words have very precise legal definitions, which may or may not correspond with the non-legal definition.

Why is it that way? When you're writing a contract or a law, having words that let you state precisely what you mean saves a lot of trouble and confusion. We can go to court about people actually breaking the law or the contract, rather than about what the definition of "is" is.

And, as that snarky example illustrated, sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes you wind up arguing exactly about the definition of words. But the precision of words in the legal community means that that happens a lot less often than it otherwise would.

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#26
post #21

I found this regulation put too much burden on small businesses. There's a very simple way around that problem - don't ask for your user's data. The GDPR is about making sure you do your best to protect what they share with you. If they don't need to share anything then there is no burden on you to protect anything. In my opinion this is the ideal outcome. If you gather their data then there really should be a burden…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#28
post #13

There are a few summaries online, search for "GDPR for developers"

Can I trust those "summaries" (open interpretations)? What if I got fined by trusting them? Who to blame?

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-da...

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#29
post #3

You don‘t really expect a law to specify which hash algorithm you‘re supposed to use, do you? The answer is simple: the law will stand for a long time, and legislators know their limits. Unlike many engineers, unfortunately. Having courts interpret laws, with help from experts, is not a bug, but a feature!

I really like this explanation. I think code could be thought of as extremely formal requirements interpreted by the computer extremely rigidly (called instructions). And the process of making software is a translation from high level requirements specified in all sorts of ways (like this law text) to gradually lower levels of abstraction. We meet somewhere in the middle by using apis/sdks. And I think programming languages could benefit a lot from becoming more elastic in the sense that they should allow you to consiusly choose which level of abstraction you need at every point in a project lifetime. Not in the sense that php is dynamic and eats errors, but more in the way the optional type forces you to consider if you care about what values tou really need and what to do if you dont have them. Or kind of (not this but kind of!) the way some business process modelling tools lets you create a graphical model of what work needs to be done and lets you automate parts of it gradually. I dont know if this makes sense, but programming languages have a very long way to go and i think they can be used in far more ways than we imagine today.

Re: Ask HN: Why are law documents (GDPR) so difficult to understand?

#30
FWIW I recently attempted to translate literally the entirety of the GDPR into Plain English (albeit for a technical audience). It's at:

https://blog.varonis.com/gdpr-requirements-list-in-plain-eng...

In general I think legislatures putting out goals/guidelines instead of detailed specifications is a feature not a bug. Tech moves faster than they can possibly keep up with and to call out things down to the patchnote level just isn't feasible.

Try to think of it more like: "jury of your peers". If a dozen fellow sysadmins / devops / programmers would consider what you're doing to be reasonable then you're probably ok.

One big caveat to that with GDPR is that the legislature is very purposefully pushing for what many would consider fairly innocuous "personal data" to be treated more how many developers today would treat something like credit card numbers or banking info including pins and passwords.

If the format/style of the article feels familiar to you, it's probably because you read "AWS in Plain English" which I also wrote and which periodically blows up on HN.

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