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Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

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Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#21

Post by Terr_ »

mikeash wrote: post #15

It’s trivial to debunk by observing that many people who say they’ve experienced this are using iPhones. On iOS, apps can’t silently use the microphone in the background. A background app using the microphone is always accompanied by a red status bar saying that they’re doing it. This doesn’t show Facebook listening, therefore we can conclude that they’re not, at least on iOS. It’s possible they might be doing it on…

> It’s trivial to debunk by observing that many people who say they’ve experienced this are using iPhones. On iOS, apps can’t silently use the microphone in the background.

The same way people believed iOS background apps couldn't record your screen? [0]

When you cannot trust the operating system manufacturer to be impartial, it stops being trivial to debunk.

[0] https://gizmodo.com/researchers-uber-s-ios-app-had-secret-pe...

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#22

Post by joshfraser »

I was at lunch with a couple friends and they were making fun of Juicero. I hadn't heard of it at this point. I didn't look it up on my phone, but at least one of my friends did. That afternoon I started seeing Juicero ads non-stop on Facebook. Was Facebook listening or did they connect the dots that my phone was in the same restaurant as friends who were Googling Juicero and figured we had been talking about it?

Another time I was on a road trip with a friend, driving through a food desert. We were talking about our food options -- stuff we never eat like McDonalds, Wendys, etc. Guess what pops up on Facebook moments later? An ad for Wendys! Were they listening? Or did they just connect the dots that it was lunch time, that we'd been driving for a long time without eating & that Wendys was one of the only options around?

In both instances, there were non-microphone explanations but creepy/impressive nonetheless.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#23

Post by ghughes »

godelski wrote: post #17

My answer to this has always been "Why would they need to?" It drains battery, it sends a lot of data, and would be a huge scandal. But you are already telling them where you are, who you're with, and they have information about your credit, etc. Instead, I've been using this as an opportunity to teach people why big data is scary. In the past people often said they didn't care that Google could, and do, read their e…

Or in other words, they are listening, just not to your voice. Their product is an intelligence-gathering apparatus that works at scale without microphones or other traditional surveillance tools.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#24

Post by superbrama »

timthelion wrote: post #19
superbrama wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thought experiment for both scenarios: I’d guess that my emissions cheat code blob is “safe” since no one is looking. (That guess was wrong of course). I’d guess that my fb app code, installed on billions of phones and scrutinized by researchers the world over isn’t going to be able to hide anything related to processing or transmitting speech recording surreptitiously.

Thought experiment for both scenarios: Every significant national government has a major agency in charge of protecting the environment from harmful emissions with many paid engineers devoted to emissions testing. None of the major national governments except Germany have an agency devoted to ensuring that devices do not en fringe on user privacy. If you think that Volkswagen is a bad example take AstraZeneca [1]. No…

Valid points but doesn’t address the basic idea that fb knows their code is widely scrutinized. If they process or transmit audio surreptitiously, or have done so, they’d be found out. Their app is so pervasive that it’s exceedingly unlikely that they’d be able to hide any such mechanism for long.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#25

Post by Techonomicon »

2_listerine_pls wrote: post #18
godelski wrote: post #17

My answer to this has always been "Why would they need to?" It drains battery, it sends a lot of data, and would be a huge scandal. But you are already telling them where you are, who you're with, and they have information about your credit, etc. Instead, I've been using this as an opportunity to teach people why big data is scary. In the past people often said they didn't care that Google could, and do, read their e…

> it sends a lot of data They could send just a transcript once every few minutes.

You probably wouldn't do that sort of processing constantly on device. Battery intensive

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#26

Post by ricardobeat »

The lack of actual responses to your question here is a bit entertaining. "Of course they are not", "it's not possible", "iOS/Android is safe" etc. Almost like it is offensive to ask.

I can't help but remember my incredulous reaction to ECHELON in the 90s and how it turned out to be not just true, but much worse than the original "conspiracy theory".

A very relevant example: https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#27

Post by readhn »

Techonomicon wrote: post #25
2_listerine_pls wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it sends a lot of data They could send just a transcript once every few minutes.

You probably wouldn't do that sort of processing constantly on device. Battery intensive

is it possible that there are tools available that do the job with minimum energy consumption but they are not out in the open yet?

i wonder what tech military has that we dont know is even possible today?

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#28

Post by notahacker »

joshfraser wrote: post #22

I was at lunch with a couple friends and they were making fun of Juicero. I hadn't heard of it at this point. I didn't look it up on my phone, but at least one of my friends did. That afternoon I started seeing Juicero ads non-stop on Facebook. Was Facebook listening or did they connect the dots that my phone was in the same restaurant as friends who were Googling Juicero and figured we had been talking about it? Ano…

There's also the it's all about how you react explanation: brands blanket people with advertising which you wilfully ignore except for those rare instances where it coincides with something you want or something that happens to resonate because you were talking about it moments earlier. And maybe your friends were making fun of Juicero at the time after being prompted by being bombarded with ads for it, rather than you being bombarded with ads because your friends made fun of it...

I think I've got a lot of Facebook ads blocked, so I'm looking at a right hand column which is recommending me pages of random companies one of my friends has once liked and suggesting translations into two languages I don't speak which are spoken in countries I've never visited and have minimal connection with. Which I guess is an upgrade on all the dating ads which didn't even bother to match my "interested in"...

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#29

Post by semperdark »

ricardobeat wrote: post #26

The lack of actual responses to your question here is a bit entertaining. "Of course they are not", "it's not possible", "iOS/Android is safe" etc. Almost like it is offensive to ask. I can't help but remember my incredulous reaction to ECHELON in the 90s and how it turned out to be not just true, but much worse than the original "conspiracy theory". A very relevant example: https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handl…

This post was built to influence the largest number of people possible. The title is worded to reach people that don't click with the suggestion that the accepted view in the community is that they aren't spying. It's also by a newly-created account made by a Facebook Ads employee.

The microphone privacy invasion rumor has spread so far without evidence because people are tired of the 1000 other privacy invasions for which there is evidence. They don't care whether or not this specific instance is true. People are tired of FB being openly scummy at every other turn. FB is the least respected tech company for a reason.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone tried to debunk the myth that Facebook is listening?

#30

Post by ben_jones »

godelski wrote: post #17

My answer to this has always been "Why would they need to?" It drains battery, it sends a lot of data, and would be a huge scandal. But you are already telling them where you are, who you're with, and they have information about your credit, etc. Instead, I've been using this as an opportunity to teach people why big data is scary. In the past people often said they didn't care that Google could, and do, read their e…

I try to put my mind in the head of whoever at Facebook would be making this decision. Chief of marketing? Chief of Technology? Mark Zuckerberg himself? A product manager? Some director?

And I believe all of them in fact would be perfectly fine with it - if it somehow helped them hit their quarterly bonuses or user growth numbers.

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